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- 12/11/17--22:33: _COG Numerologist St...
- 12/13/17--09:26: _Loma Armstrong Drea...
- 12/13/17--21:20: _UCG: We are just li...
- 12/14/17--10:05: _Does the Bible matter?
- 12/14/17--16:42: _Sexual harassment a...
- 12/15/17--15:51: _Revelatory Fun: "A...
- 12/16/17--00:02: _Gerald Weston on Yoga
- 12/16/17--13:50: _More Upheaval In th...
- 12/17/17--19:38: _Dave Pack His Dirty...
- 12/17/17--19:47: _LCG Doug Winnail: ...
- 12/18/17--14:11: _David C Pack's Coff...
- 12/18/17--14:11: _Ian Boyne Dies!
- 12/19/17--09:55: _Jamaica Gleaner: Th...
- 12/19/17--22:53: _Grumpy COG False Pr...
- 12/20/17--06:37: _"We Shall Not All D...
- 12/20/17--18:55: _Ron Weinland Strugg...
- 12/20/17--23:16: _COGWA on determinin...
- 12/21/17--22:20: _Bitter Prophet Agha...
- 12/22/17--18:04: _UCG Members Prefer ...
- 12/22/17--19:17: _LCG: Get Your Free...
- 12/14/17--10:05: Does the Bible matter?
- 12/14/17--16:42: Sexual harassment and the women of "me too"
- 12/15/17--15:51: Revelatory Fun: "As Above...So Below"
- 12/16/17--00:02: Gerald Weston on Yoga
- 12/17/17--19:38: Dave Pack His Dirty Secret
- 12/18/17--14:11: David C Pack's Coffee Con Game
- 12/18/17--14:11: Ian Boyne Dies!
- 12/19/17--09:55: Jamaica Gleaner: The Miracle of Ian Boyne
- 12/19/17--22:53: Grumpy COG False Prophet Upset Over Philadelphia PA's Mummers Parade
- 12/20/17--23:16: COGWA on determining what is a counterfeit church
- 12/22/17--18:04: UCG Members Prefer Annual Christmas Party Over Attending Feast Sites
- 12/22/17--19:17: LCG: Get Your Free Defunct "University" Clothing!
For the people who think the Church of God produced sound theology and theologically educated members, this is for you:
This is just as stupid as Dave Pack saying that the first person to be resurrected by Jesus Christ will be Herbert Armstrong:Divine ArithmeticIf Herbert W Armstrong is who he said he is:the endtime Elijah who restores all things;the Zerubbabel who finishes what he starts;the Philadelphia apostle sent to the 6th Church Era--since there are only 7 such messengers,and the last two are the Two Witnesses--then HWA must "rise" to again prophesy,to many nations and kings.And surely be aided to garner many disciples,with revived 'Joshua' GTA,mercifully granted the opportunityto set an example of repentance to all Laodiceans.Only God can predict and bring about such an outcome.All self-proclaimed 'Elijahs' and psudeo-'Two-Witnesses' are in for a shock.Geoff NeilsonCape TownDec 2017
Mr. Armstrong literally will have the honor of being the first human being, at the end of the age, to be resurrected from the dead. Now, there have been other people resurrected in different ages, but I’m talking about resurrected from the dead to go on within Christ’s government to a position of enormous authority. I just find that easy to understand.
Just when you think the craziness of various splinter personality cult leaders can't get any crazier, along comes Almost-arrested and almost-ordained Bob Thiel making one his more idiotic baseless claims yet. The blatant lies that come out of this man's mouth make Dave Pack's silliness look halfway normal.
Elijah Thiel bases his entire personality cult upon some nightmares that he and a couple other people had after eating some bad Chinese food.
Amos Thiel starts off with this:
Do dreams and prophets have any place in the Christian Church today?
Did any dreams precede the start of the old Radio Church of God? What about the Continuing Church of God (which did not officially form as a declared entity until December 28, 2012)?
The Bible records that God often has used dreams to give messages (Genesis 20:3-7, 28:10-17, 31:10-13, 31:24, 37:5-10, 40:5-18, 41:1-32; Numbers 12:6; Judges 7:13-15; 1 Kings 3:5-15; Daniel 2:3-45, 4:4-27, 7:1-28; Matthew 1:20-25, 2:12, 2:13, 2:19, 2:22; Acts 16:9).
Joshua Thiel has been widely mocked for claiming his dreams validate his reason for starting a new splinter personality cult. To further validate his apostleship he trots out Herbert Armstrong. No shocker there. HWA was exposed to hundreds and hundreds of crackpots over the decades that had dreams that they claimed were directly from God. Herb had this to say about them (and Thiel):I had a dream prior to the start of the Continuing Church of God, as did someone I then did not know who lived in New Zealand.
Elisha Thiel believes thathe is that "1" person left that actually had a real dream channelled into his mind by his god.While some may wish to discount what happened with me, let us also look at something that the late Herbert W. Armstrong wrote about dreams:Let me say here that in about 99,999 times out of 100,000, when people think GOD is speaking to them in a dream or vision in this day and age, it is pure imagination, or some form of self-hypnotism or self-deception. I have only come to believe that this dream was a bonafide call from God in the light of subsequent events. (Autobiography of Herbert Armstrong, (Volume 1), chapter 10, 1973, p. 194)
Bitter Bob next trots out Loma Armstrong's dream that HWA claimed took him many years to believe was true.
Within 30 or 60 days after our marriage God spoke to my wife in what might have been an intense unusual dream, or a vision — but it was years later before we came to realize that this really was a message from God. (Armstrong HW. Brethren and Co-worker letter, November 28, 1956)
One night my wife had a dream so vivid and impressive it overwhelmed and shook her tremendously. It was so realistic it seemed more like a vision. For two or three days afterward everything else seemed unreal — as if in a daze — and only this extraordinary dream seemed real.
In her dream she and I were crossing the wide intersection, only a block or two from our apartment, where Broadway diagonally crosses Sheridan Road. Suddenly there appeared an awesome sight in the sky above. It was a dazzling spectacle — the sky filled with a gigantic solid mass of brilliant stars, shaped like a huge banner. The stars began to quiver and separate, finally vanishing. She called my attention to the vanishing stars, when another huge grouping of flashing stars appeared, then quivering, separating, and vanishing like the first.
As she and I, in her dream, looked upward at the vanishing stars, three large white birds suddenly appeared in the sky between us and the vanishing stars. These great white birds flew directly toward us. As they descended nearer, she perceived that they were angels.
“Then,” my wife wrote a day or two after the dream, in a letter to my mother which I have just run across among old family pictures, “it dawned on me that Christ was coming, and I was so happy I was just crying for joy. Then suddenly I thought of Herbert and was rather worried.”
She knew I had evidenced very little religious interest, although we had attended a corner church two or three times.
Then it seemed that, from among these angels in her dream, that, “Christ descended from among them and stood directly in front of us.
At first I was a little doubtful and afraid of how He would receive us, because I remembered we had neglected our Bible study and had our minds too much on things apart from His interests. But as we went up to Him, He put His arms around both of us, and we were so happy! I thought people all over the world had seen Him come. As far as we could see, people were just swarming into the streets at this broad intersection. Some were glad and some were afraid.
“Then it seemed He had changed into an angel. I was terribly disappointed at first, until he told me Christ was really coming in a very short time.”
At that time, we had been going quite regularly to motion – picture theatres. She asked the angel if this were wrong. He replied Christ had important work for us to do, preparing for His coming — there would be no time for “movies .” (Those were the days of the “silent” pictures.) Then the angel and the whole spectacle seemed to vanish, and she awakened, shaken and wondering!
In the morning, she told me of her dream. I was embarrassed. I didn’t want to think about it, yet I was afraid to totally dismiss it. I thought of a logical way to evade it myself, and still solve it. …Do not hastily ascribe a dream to God. True, the Bible shows that God has spoken to His own chosen servants by this means of communication — primarily in the Old Testament, and before the writing of the Bible was completed. But most dreams mean nothing. And false prophets have misled people by telling false dreams, representing their dreams to be the Word of God (Jeremiah 23, where God sa ys, “I am against prophets who recount lying dreams, leading my people astray with their lies and their empty pretensions, though I never sent them, never commissioned them” — verse 32, Moffatt translation).
Certainly I did not ascribe this dream to God. It made me feel a little uncomfortable at the time, and I was anxious to forget it — which I did for some years. I was twenty – five at the time. God left me to my own ways for five more years. But when I was age thirty, He began to deal with me in no uncertain terms… (The Autobiography of Herbert W. Armstrong, 1973, pp. 187,193-194).
Loma and Herbert Armstrong were married in 1917. They were specifically told that they would have a work to do. Furthermore, the bright lights in the dream may have had to do with doing a work (cf. Matthew 5:16)–a work that seemed to vanish and return (flash). Thus, there was a dream from God given to a woman in the 20th century that preceded the start of the old Radio Church of God that Herbert W. Armstrong led. The Radio Church of God represented the start of the Philadelphia era and the Philadelphian work–a work that is not finished (cf. Matthew 24:14-15)–and Herbert W. Armstrong claimed that a dream given to his wife was from God, prior to the start of the Philadelphia era.Elijah Thiel got all excited when he read that HWA's Philadelphia era was not finished. Lightbulbs started exploding in Amos Thiel's brain; why not make the same baseless claims to justify my group! Let's claim that part of Loma's dream was about my group! Yes!!!!!!!! Winner!!!
Since the Philadelphia era was raised up years after that dream, a question to ponder is would God do anything similar to point to the continuation of the end-time COG remnant of the Philadelphians? Consider that in Loma Armstrong’s dream that there were two sets of flashing stars–there were two parts to the dream. Herbert Armstrong is now dead and there was a pause between the work God had him to do and the completion of the final phase of the work to finally fulfill Matthew 24:14 (cf. Isaiah 29:14).Habakkuk Thiel then claims that his group is the "transitional phase" of God's work, which he claims is consistent with Loma's nightmare. Elijah Thiel claims that he and his group are the ONES that his god will use to finish the work.
In the past, like in 2013 and 2014, I have called the time between his death and the formation of the Continuing Church of God the transitional phase–which is consistent with Loma Armstrong’s dream. God will cut that final work short (Romans 9:28) which results in the famine of the word which is consistent with the vanishing stars in Loma Armstrong’s dream (though there could be other interpretations–we in CCOG are continuing the Philadelphia work and expect to be the ones God will use on earth to help finish it).Amos Thiel claims he is the 21st-century fulfilment of Loma's nightmare.
Notice that the dream was to go until the end of the world and the coming of Jesus–since Herbert Armstrong has been dead since January 16, 1986–if the dream was from God then, does it not make sense that the second half of the dream would be fulfilled by another in the 21st century? We in the Continuing Church of God are fulfilling that second part of stars.
Perhaps it should be mentioned, Herbert Armstrong had more information about what I am referring to as the first set of stars in the dream. He wrote:It was a dazzling spectacle…People by the hundreds came running into this broad intersection looking up to see the strange phenomena … A vast multitude of eyes were upon us… I have only come to believe that this dream was a bonafide call from God in the light of subsequent events. (Armstrong HW. The Autobiography of Herbert W. Armstrong, 9th installment. Plain Truth, August 1958, p. 18).
Almost-arrested Thiel believes Herbert was referring to the "continuing" Church of God as that final work:Eyes of a vast multitude suggest that the dream was saying that the work to be done was to have a witness to many. This happened with the old Radio and Worldwide Church of God under Herbert Armstrong’s leadership in the 20th century. The second set of stars in the dream, which he did not mention in the August 1958 Plain Truth, article, but did in his published Autobiography, may pertain to what I have called, for years, The Final Phase of the Work. But even if it had applicability to the ministry of Herbert Armstrong only, the dream, which he shortly before his death he confirmed he believed was from God (per Aaron Dean, who I discussed this with on October 30, 2015), shows that one did precede the COG work he was involved in.
Consider that Herbert W. Armstrong considered that his wife Loma’s dream was from God. He also believed the first part of it had to do with the start of the Philadelphia era of the Church of God via the Radio Church Church of God. He did not discuss the fulfillment of the second part of the dream directly, however he taught another work would be done.Next, Almost-ordained Thiel trots out Dale Schurter. Yes, THAT Dale Schurter! A man who has no more credibility that Almost-ordained Bob does.
Dale Schurter, a former WCG minister, reported that Herbert W. Armstrong stated the following in 1984/1985 (shortly before he died in January 1986). Here are two accounts of this:
“A few months before Mr. Armstrong’s death, my wife and I had the opportunity to spend several hours with Mr. Armstrong in his home in Pasadena. He spoke freely of the mighty work God had commissioned him to accomplish, and related certain heartfelt comments: ‘I can say that I have finished the work God has given me to do, and am at peace about it. I have preached and taken the Gospel of the Kingdom of God into all the world as a witness to all nations.’
“Mr. Armstrong went on to say, ‘I have come to realize there will be an even greater work to follow—to go again, to “prophesy again” to all nations tongues and peoples (Rev. 10:11) before the work of the two witnesses—but with more power and with a stronger warning message. But that will be for others to do.’ He continued, ‘It will be a short work (Rom. 9:27-29), compared with the longer time to complete the work I was given, and it will be cut short. That’s when the Great Tribulation will begin, as will the work of the two witnesses. These will last for three and one-half years, at the end of which Christ will return in glory.’” (“The Greatest Work Lies JUST Ahead…” as stated in RCG letter of May 31, 2013)Herb's "great work yet to come" was a direct revelation about Elisha Thiel's personality cult. Who knew!
Here is what was in Herbert W. Armstrong’s last letter:The greatest work lies ahead…Never before in the history of the Church has it been possible to reap so great a harvest. It has only been made possible through modern technology, beginning with the printing press, radio, television...Each of you must commit yourself to support God’s Work…God’s work must push ahead as never before. God is opening up new doors in television (Letter, 1/10/86).
Consider that since Herbert Armstrong did not teach that the second part of his wife Loma’s dream was fulfilled and that he also taught a greater work was going to happen after his death. It is greater because it will fulfill Matthew 24:14, etc. That is the work that we in the Continuing Church of God are leading. It appears that the second part of Loma D. Armstrong’s dream was pointing to the Continuing Church of God–the group that best represents the remnant of the Philadelphian portion of the Church of God.Loma and Herb are rolling over in their graves at the thought of Elijah Thiel appropriating her dream as his own.
Now that Amos Thiel has used up all of Loma's dreams, he has to bring to the forefront his own nightmares as further proof he is the legitimate end time work. He writes:
Several years ago I had a dream, which while I did not understand it at first, as it became more and more fulfilled over the years, I began to understand it and believe it was from God.
Prophet Thiel just cannot get over Rod Meredith's deliberating ignoring of him. The sting has been painful for Amos Thiel. Rod was wrong, but Joshua Thiel was right.I was 50 at the time (which essentially makes me an ‘old man’ per Numbers 8:25; cf. John 8:57). In my dream, there seemed to be two parallel lines. Living Church of God (LCG) evangelist, the now deceased Roderick Meredith, was on the top line and I was on the line much below. In the dream, I kept calling up to Dr. Meredith, but he never would respond. This lack of response made no sense to me during the dream. Then after what seemed to be a long time, the lines-crossed with his line dropping and my line going up.
One reason that I did not understand it at the time was that I was on relatively close speaking terms with Dr. Meredith then (he repeatedly told me he considered me to be his friend, plus he had appointed me an adviser to LCG on matters of doctrine and prophecy), so that aspect of the dream made no sense. Also, since I had no intentions of leaving Living Church of God then (and certainly no plans to start a separate church), it was not clear what the dream was saying. Another reason I was unsure about the dream then was that I had not had any anointing for the Holy Spirit beyond baptism when I had that dream.
But these matters changed eventually. For one, I was unexpectedly anointed for a ‘double-portion’ of God’s Spirit (cf. 2 Kings 2:9) on December 15, 2011 by an LCG minister named Gaylyn Bonjour.Gaylyn Bonjour never intended for his prayer to be anything of the sort. This is nothing more than a deliberate lie by Habbakuk Thiel.
Leaving Bonjour behind, Elisha Thiel is still bitter about Meredith's willful dismissal. That dismissal of Bob set the groundwork for his apostacy from the Living Church of God.
Furthermore, over time, Dr. Meredith became more distant from me, would not keep various promises to me, and ultimately stopped speaking with me. And after I got an improper letter from him on 12/28/12, it was clear to me that there was no way that the Philadelphia mantle could be with him or any of his leaders. These subsequent events showed me that the dream was being fulfilled.Bitter Bob is also ticked off that almost all of the COG's no longer believe there are prophets alive today and even worse, they do not believe in weird people having nightmares and starting new groups.
Despite what the Bible supports, most Church of God groups do not seemingly accept that there are any prophets today, nor do they seem to accept that God actually sometimes speaks in dreams in the 21st century–some, oddly, seem indignant of the very idea. Part of the reason for this is that those self-proclaimed ‘prophets’ outside of the Continuing Church of God have tended to be proven to be false.
But that does not mean God doesn’t ever use dreams or have any in the office of prophet or ever pour out a ‘double-portion’ of His Spirit (cf. 2 Kings 2:9-15) as happened when an ordained minister so prayed and anointed me on December 15, 2011.Next, Almost-arrested Thiel drags a woman in New Zealand out as further proof he is the legitimate one. She had a dream too, and it was all about Elijah Thiel starting a new splinter group. This dreaming of dreams stuff is very similar to the dreams and visions that Joseph Smith had when he was starting his own personality cult. That "burning in the bosom," was a sure sign that God was behind the dreams.
Unbeknownst to me until late September 2013, a woman named Fesilafai Fiso Leaana of New Zealand had a dream after going to bed on December 8, 2012.
A few months before my dream, my husband and I noticed a contradiction in practice, regarding the sabbath commandment in LCG, from there we started to pray continuously for God to lead us to where the truth is. It seems God has answered our prayers through the dream.
The dream began with myself and approximately 70 New Zealand Living Church of God brethren, then suddenly LCG vanished (I was wondering where is LCG?) and I was left standing with approximately 10 people excluding myself, on a very high building. We were standing on the very top of the building, where I couldn’t see the bottom, there were no other buildings, just this building. I could not see the bottom of the building but just clouds below the building and clouds surrounding the building which led to a beautiful white mountain – a mountain that had no ends on either side. The building was pretty close to the mountain, I could see the top of the mountain. The mountain was all white and so beautiful. I remember that I began to be filled with joy and peace. But also wondering how we got up on this building and confused why there were no other buildings but the clouds seemed like it was hiding the building and I felt protected or it felt like a safe place. I looked around there were still only about ten people there, the only person I could clearly recognize was Shirley constantly working, the approximate ten others were just sitting and standing around. So I walked around the building looking for the large crowd from LCG, but all I kept returning to was that Shirley was working and doing different types of work alone while the others were still sitting and standing around the building with me. I wondered why she was working a lot. I could not find LCG.
Then suddenly a message came to my mind: “There is a secret in the mountain”. And I was so happy to know that, I was still feeling elated and could still see the beautiful white mountain and wondered about the secret. Then I asked: “What is the secret?” Then the message said, nobody knows the secret in the mountain but only you have received this message that there is a secret in the mountain. Then I asked ‘what is the secret in the mountain?’ I received a message to my mind that told me that “the secret in the mountain is the Ark of the Covenant”. Then the dream abruptly ended because I woke up. And immediately, I woke up my husband and recounted the dream to him, and I told my husband that it reminded me of when God gave Moses the Ten Commandments on the mountain and that the mountain was also covered with clouds.
On the same day after my dream, at church service Mr Penman warned us to be careful what we read from Bob Thiel’s Obama book, because they do not support everything he wrote in it. At the time I kept your name in my mind as I did not know who you were then.
Then 3 weeks later Shirley contacted me regarding your Chronology – the exit from LCG. Shirley had all of the Chronology and gave us all a print out of it and went over it with my husband and I. Shirley kept stressing the integrity of the LCG leadership and administration was compromised as proven by your Chronology account. Then my husband and I had to make a decision whether we would continue with LCG or go with Bob Thiel (you) since Shirley, John and Kayla had already decided to be with you 🙂
We decided to go with Bob Thiel and then left the meeting but a letter from Mr. Penman and a visit from the new New Zealand minister Paul attempted to obstruct our departure and tried to dissuade us from leaving LCG and coming with you. This forced us to carefully rethink our decision.
My husband and I were alone, that’s when my husband said to me, “remember your dream? This is what your dream means, that we need to leave this church and go with Shirley”. That’s when we knew what to do. And this dream is the reason most of us in the kiwi CCOG knew that we are in the right Church, God told us to come to this Church. We reaffirmed with Shirley and others that we were going to go with Bob Thiel and my husband told them the dream for the first time and that the dream is the reason my husband and I decided to come.
Not having all the details of the dream, Shirley then prayed about the dream. She asked God for more understanding on the dream. Then the next day she was reading the book of Psalm and Psalm 25:14 JUMPED out at her: “The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, And He will show them His covenant.” (email 9/29/13)Lest you think it can't get any crazier, another of his cult members dreamed a dream that most of Elijah Thiel's members would be black skinned.
On March 28, 2014, I flew into London for a two night stopover, before heading to Kenya for a CCOG leadership conference. Within an hour of arriving at my hotel, Senhor Pires came for baptismal counseling. As we walked from the hotel lobby to my room, he wanted to tell me about a vision he saw in a dream that he had.
Here is what he said:I had this dream. In it was a vision of a congregation of the Continuing Church of God inside a transparent glass bubble (like a balloon). And everyone, I mean everyone apart from the speaker, was black. The speaker was white. And I was asking myself inside that bubble…”why is everyone black here?”It made no sense to me. I wondered why I would see this.
When Senhor Pires told me the above, I began to laugh. I said to him, “Didn’t you know that the vast majority of people in the Continuing Church of God were black?”
And he said, “No, I figured that most would be white.”
In the mind of Elijah Amos Thiel, dreams are the only legitimate way God speaks to his leaders today.I then told him, “This is quite interesting. Your dream seems to be one of three or more directly related to the Continuing Church of God (CCOG) that has had confirmation.”
While this may not seem to be a massive ‘earth-shattering’ dream, it is yet additional confirmation that God has used dreams/visions to communicate to at least three individuals who all later became part of the Continuing Church of God. Dreams and visions are something that God intended to use during the end times (cf. Acts 2:17-18; Joel 2:28-29). Elijah apparently once thought that God would be in something dramatic, but then only was in “a still small voice” (1 Kings 19:11-13).
I believe that they are partial confirmations that the Continuing Church of God was to lead (two dreams happened prior to CCOG’s formation), and now is leading, the final phase of the work . The truths that we teach should be accepted as the other proof:
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8:45)
Believe the truth, at least for the truth’s sake. Christians are to believe and know the truth (1 Timothy 4:3). The truth sets Christians free (John 8:32) from all types of error (including Laodicean ones, cf. Revelation 3:14-22). The Laodiceans and remnant of Sardis have so many prophetic misunderstandings that they will not possibly know when the Great Tribulation will start until it is too late!Never has the Church of God seen such a miraculous church than the Continuing Church of God!
While this may not seem to be a massive ‘earth-shattering’ dream, it is yet additional confirmation that God has used dreams/visions to communicate to at least three individuals who all later became part of the Continuing Church of God. Dreams and visions are something that God intended to use during the end times (cf. Acts 2:17-18; Joel 2:28-29). Elijah apparently once thought that God would be in something dramatic, but then only was in “a still small voice” (1 Kings 19:11-13).
I believe that they are partial confirmations that the Continuing Church of God was to lead (two dreams happened prior to CCOG’s formation), and now is leading, the final phase of the work. The truths that we teach should be accepted as the other proof:
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8:45)
Believe the truth, at least for the truth’s sake. Christians are to believe and know the truth (1 Timothy 4:3). The truth sets Christians free (John 8:32) from all types of error (including Laodicean ones, cf. Revelation 3:14-22). The Laodiceans and remnant of Sardis have so many prophetic misunderstandings that they will not possibly know when the Great Tribulation will start until it is too late!Your salvation is at risk if you do not follow Bitter Bob. Truth now only proceeds from his mouth and can only be found in the "continuing" Church of God. All other COG's are far too ignorant to know the true signs of the end times. Because of that, none of them will know the correct time to flee to Petra and escape the tribulation. Join with Prophet Bob and you will know!
Review of Strategic Plan—Bob Dick
Bob Dick, as the chair of the Strategic Planning and Finance Committee, led the discussion in reviewing the current Strategic Plan. He began by going over key terms and discussing the creation of S.M.A.R.T. goals, which are Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic and Timely.UCG, after 20 some years realizes they need some corporate goals. It took them that long to figure this out? Using Jelly as your public face does not help matters much either.
The importance of having goals that can be measured was addressed. If you have a goal that can’t be measured then it is time to change your goal. You want your goals to be measurable. The challenge is to know what can be measured and what cannot. Sometimes it takes years to accurately assess a program. Mr. Dick encouraged the Council to get a copy of the United Way book on “Measuring Program Outcomes,” which is a good resource that can be found online.UCG has also realized they need to focus on the speaking quality of their ministers, the quality of their TV program and most importantly, the quality of their Feast sites. Apparently, the speaking is so bad that they need fancier and fancier sites that people will find more attractive than the speaker.
The Council then began to discuss what the strategic issues of the UCG are right now. Some of the strategic areas discussed included youth education, engaging the young adults, quality of speaking, quality of the Beyond Today program and the quality of Feast sites.
Mark Mickelson commented that on the church website the people are already telling you what they like by the sermons they download. The problem can come from rewarding loyalty instead of quality of the message. The brethren listen and discuss the sermons they like.
Scott Ashley mentioned we have to acknowledge what we can control and what we can’t. We can control how many BT magazines we put out, but we can’t control the response.UCG, for some reason, believes they are soon to be persecuted for their messages. When have they ever preached anything controversial? When Jelly gets more viewers than sermons, that should say a lot! Besides, UCG is of the opinion that it really doesn't matter in the long run. Noah preached as he built the ark for 100 years and no one listened so why do we need to worry?
Mario Seiglie commented that we can’t always look at outcomes. The Church is to preach the gospel, and it won’t always be popular, but it must be done. Noah was a preacher of righteousness for 100 years while building the ark with no response, but to God he was a success.The world is in such horrible shape that UCG needs to hone their message to the critical urgency they seem to think they have.
Dr. Ward mentioned the importance of discerning the times and looking at strategic planning from a certain worldview. We need to hone our messages to the critical times in which we are living with a sense of urgency.UCG is building new recording studios where they will film their new awesome messages!
Preview goals and plans for the future of Beyond Today video and the use of the new video recording studio—Victor Kubik
President Kubik began the presentation by mentioning the need for and the current conditions of our public proclamations. This is not a new conversation. The modern Church has always been one of public proclamation. We are always to be seeking God’s will and seek what God want us to do. Currently we are strong with our video, Internet and content online. We aren’t talking only about television, but video for cell phones, Roku and other streaming devices down the road. He then turned it over to Peter Eddington for further detail.
Mr. Eddington, as media operation manager, then went through explaining the current state of the media department’s video content, what is being done, and future programs that are being looked at. He explained that video content has the opportunity for first contact, and leads different types of people to God.
The media department is looking to create more video and stronger video. Currently we have the following programs:
four-minute dailies—which supply personal contact daily
four-minute short films—we encourage church members to share them on social media
28-minute television programs—which are currently airing on broadcast and cable television and streamed online
Future programs could include the following:
20-minute podcasts—popular for driving timeA Church of God program that can be trusted, now that is a novel concept!
25-minute live presentations—with space for a live studio audience. Eventually have BT live daily with a live studio audience as well.
50-minute documentaries—The goal is to establish BT as a quality brand that can be trusted. These will be on specific biblical topics through the use of captivating storytelling and engaging visuals. Produced every 18 months or so.
About 25 percent of the media department’s time is spent supporting our ministry and congregations with sermon packs, camp videos and other services.
This is from the ACPasadenareunion site and is used by permission of Gregory Doudna. Besides being an authority on the Dead Sea Scrolls, he is the author of the excellent book published in 2006, "Showdown at Big Sandy: Youthful Creativity Confronts Bureaucratic Inertia at an Unconventional Bible College in East Texas"
Does the Bible matter
AC was based on an interpretation of the Bible. Post-AC this continues for many in various forms, while some reinterpret and others repudiate, the Bible as a basis for moral or social authority. Some find spiritual solace and meaning in passages of the Bible, others find such talk "triggering". Everyone here, no less than the first Christians, are atheists--in the classical sense of not believing in the Greek and Roman gods. No one here suffers existential angst or distress wondering whether Zeus maybe really exists and what if he will be wrathful in the afterlife for our lack of belief in him. But, Yahweh and Christ are live issues to many.
70% of Americans self-identify as Christian. 25% of Americans are evangelical Christians (versus 15% mainstream Protestant and 20% Catholic). Evangelicals--a quarter of America--are the main voter base of the Republican Party and responsible for the Trump Presidency and several recent presidencies, for better or worse, domestically and for the world. Polls show evangelical Christian self-identification correlates with increased support for state torture (Pew Research Center). 65% of evangelical Christians reject the existence of macro-evolution as a scientific fact. This is compared to 30% of all Americans and ca. 1>
We know cult-like thinking and how it operated, in our own past bubble experience. America, right now, is a bigger version of cult thinking. But this time it is not a church whose only barrier to exit are social and psychological ties.
Unlike the old WCG, this modern cult environment is based on war worldwide. The cost of just the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan alone, none of which involved defense of territorial United States, begun by a President who believed God had guided him to do so, is calculated at $4.4 trillion (Brown U. study, just published). These wars have killed 250,000 in direct killings, half of which are civilians, and displaced 7.8 million people from their homes. American Special Operations forces are active in 130 nations, 70% of the world's nations. American combat operations are ongoing in at least a dozen nations right now.
The WCG did not exercise civil power. But imagine Gerald Waterhouse, Roderick Meredith, or HWA or GTA types in control of the world's biggest military power in history, guided by the Word of God, the foundation of knowledge. Imagine? Maybe we don't have to imagine. Is it already here?
I wonder if there are lessons that can be learned from our AC/WCG experience which could shed insight on actual causes and solutions to issues of war and peace, as distinguished from the bromides in the Plain Truth magazine and invocation of supernatural or extraterrestrial interventions.
This is from the ACPasadenareunion site and is used by permission of Gregory Doudna. Besides being an authority on the Dead Sea Scrolls, he is the author of the excellent book published in 2006, "Showdown at Big Sandy: Youthful Creativity Confronts Bureaucratic Inertia at an Unconventional Bible College in East Texas"
In retrospect, how would WCG history and our own AC experience have been different if the unspeakable allegation concerning HWA had been known?
"Unspeakable" because it is literally unspoken, like the family secret that is never named, including in my own book "Showdown at Big Sandy", even though I knew of it and believed it was true. I have never heard it even mentioned on this forum, perhaps for similar reasons as why I simply could not bring myself to do so when I wrote my book. When I first heard the allegation long ago I felt like throwing up, a feellng which lasted for days. That it was apparently true seemed indicated on a number of grounds brought out in past issues of Ambassador Report, with a long track record of consistently highly accurate reporting. Yet I could not bring myself to name it, it was so sickening to me.
There is a European tradition that politicians can have mistresses or infidelities and no one cares so long as they are competent at their job. That is not what the current issues in America, the "me-too" stories coming out like a tsunami, seem to be about. It is rather about issues of abuses of power, and nonconsensual violation of body.
In late 1973, just as the dissident outbreak of Shreveport and then the larger regional directors of 1974 was breaking, I among a thousand others heard GTA in a sermon at Big Sandy say that there had been an early allegation of adultery against his father, HWA, back in the early days in Oregon. GTA did not say the allegation was true. In fact everyone hearing it would have assumed it was not true, a false allegation, in GTA's telling, though to the best of my memory GTA did not directly say it was false either, even though that was the default assumption. But what was that all about? I had never heard of such an allegation before regarding HWA. Barely two or three months later, Ronald Dart (resident deputy chancellor at Big Sandy) in a sermon or a student forum (I forget which it was but I was present and wrote in real-time notes the exact wording), said with emphasis: that in all of the criticisms of HWA that were being voiced by dissidents one thing that was not being raised or questioned was the content of HWA's character. "His (HWA's) character is as pure as the driven snow" said Mr. Dart with great rhetorical impact and force. I interpret that as that by early 1974 Mr. Dart had literally not yet heard the allegation.
I cannot imagine that I, or my father before me in Akron, Ohio, would have come into the church in the first place with a leader credibly having the nature of the allegation against HWA. It would have changed everything for me, or my father. But, when the allegation did become known, it did not change everything, in fact, outwardly and seemingly, it changed not much of anything. How could people like Meredith and other old-timers with similar mindsets, for example, still have continued to uphold HWA without addressing that? Did they think the allegation was actually fabricated? Did they think that it was irrelevant?
The Throne in Heaven
The four living creatures are made up from the Constellations of the Four Seasons, in this case, Summer-Leo the Lion...and three months earlier, Spring- Taurus the Ox...and three months earlier, Winter-Aquarius the Waterman...and three months earlier, Fall-Aquila the Eagle. Their combined wings again are the 24 hours in the day (4x6) and "covered with eyes" are the night sky stars one can see all around them.
These creatures, representing Spring, Summer, Winter and Fall are also found in Ezekiel's visions.
"This is something the church should not legislate on..." but...
It looks like another Church of God group is getting ready to split after it's pastor resigns over a controversy over the use of "amen" at the end of prayers.
Ron Harmon of The House of God located in Texas, is of the belief that using "amen" after a prayer is acknowledging the sun-god "Aman-Ra" from ancient Egypt.
If these men focused even half of their energy on Jesus instead of silliness like this then they might actually accomplish something. But no, they cannot and will not.
July 16th 2017
Please take the following with brotherly intent.
In Reply to your letter on the term amen, I feel you have misunderstood my stance on this issue.
I did one sermon on this and in that sermon, I told everyone it wasn't a doctrine or a edict of the church; they were free to use amen or any other phrase to end a pray, or none at all. I recommended folks doing their own study on the subject, just as I do most other things I speak about.
As far as Frank was concerned, he took it to a level where I would never have, but that was Frank.
IT"S NOT A DOCTRINE of this church. It's not written anywhere and it isn't even on the website because the old archives are listed as of now.
I agreed for your sake I wouldn't push this any further, but you seem to be insistent when there isn't any others bringing the subject up.
It leads me to ask, what do you want done?
If you want me to publicly proclaim I was wrong and Frank was wrong, that isn't going to happen, I will resign and leave the church before that happens.
As far as I'm concerned on a personal bases, I will never use the phrase amen and I will spell out to why.
It is a reaffirmation of a prayer or a sermon or statement. The ancient Egyptians used it in the exact same manner but to their sun god amen-ra, aman-ra or amun-ra, however you want to spell it, all are correct.
1. You keep referring to Revelation 3:14 as your sticking point on this.
There are at least three other bible translations that don't use the word amen.
TLB (Living Bible)
“Write this letter to the leader of the church in Laodicea: “This message is from the one who stands firm, the faithful and true Witness of all that is or was or evermore shall be,* the primeval source of God’s creation:
NLV (New Living Translation)
“Write this to the angel of the church in the city of Laodicea: ‘The One Who says, Let it be so, the One Who is faithful, the One Who tells what is true, the One Who made everything in God’s world, says this:
WE, (World English)
`Write this to the angel of the church people in Laodicea: Here are the words of the one whose name is Truth. What he says can be trusted. He is the one who began all that God made.
I don't believe for one second amen is one of Jesus names, nor is God or any other name we use and amen won't be used in His kingdom.
It is not credible that God would invoke the name of an Egyptian god when he regarded himself as the only true God and his own name as above all names. “I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other...” (Isaiah 42:8).
Even the name Lord here is improper, should actually say Yahweh.
But I don't make folks adhere to the true translations either, I even try and not say the word lord, instead I use Eternal if I remember.
In John chapter one He is called the logo's (word) and that is a correct interpretation as well.
But scriptures have been manipulated in so many areas of the bible, its really a matter of where one draws the line.
The word wasn't used before Israel went into captivity, while in captivity there is no evidence they kept their complete language pure or unbroken, it wouldn't even be practical to believe so.
It also isn't practical to assume they worshiped only the God of Israel, they didn't.
It is the reason why the true God did what He did when He brought Israel out of Egypt.
I don't want to go word for word on this with you, all I need to know is what is your solution?
I'm fine with leaving the issue as it is and not bringing it up, but if you want it expunged from Austin's lexicon and Franks archives, you'll have to address the whole Austin congregation about it.
One last thing, I don't in any way consider it blasphemous to our true Father or Christ to limit ones words he uses, especially when affirming another's prayers or statements.
Mathew 5:33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Mike if you feel so strongly about my stance on this, then I gladly step down and you can chart the way of the church for the future. I'm not so wrapped up in this position it would bother me to step aside at this time.
Until then, I'm glad to let those that want to use amen use it, and those that don't, not do so.
This has been my stance on the use of sacred names, and any other thing someone wants to believe.
It's my desire we can get this issue behind us and we can stay friends and fellow workers for Christ but I won't be forced to do something I don't believe in, and I wouldn't expect you or any other person to do so either.
Church of God News had this:
House of God
This is pastor Ron Harmon’s letter of resignation from the House of God in Texas:
“To The Wonderful People of the House of God:
Unknown to most of you there has been a spiritual struggle occurring within our congregations. It was a battle not of my choosing, but it caused much tension in our home. This last Sunday at our annual meeting of the consul and ministers of the House of God, it all came to a conclusion.
This spiritual battle has been raging behind the scenes for many years bringing me to a final conclusion. I can’t work effectively when others I work with are so consumed by my different beliefs on ending prayers, not allowing camaraderie to exist.
As of Sunday (12th December 2017), Virginia and I are no longer members of the House of God. I won’t get into the specifics for the sake of the church, only to say the following. I cannot go against my convictions and how I see the scriptures. There are some in the leadership of the church who seem to believe my salvation is lost because of what I believe on one issue. I can only say this, you might be careful how you judge others and their salvation.
I will be continuing the work in the ways I can from my home. I’m not sure at this time how that will manifest itself, but the fact is, I can’t stop serving God.
I wish everyone well and God’s blessings. I’ve always tried to help make everyone’s lives a little better at the House of God and we hope you remember us fondly. Virginia and I are deeply saddened by what has transpired over the last few months. We are saddened to not be a part of your lives any longer, but we no longer feel welcomed, and we don’t go where we’re not welcomed.
God Bless you all: Ron Harmon.”
Isn't it awesome to have the inside track to "the truth" and to be able to say that everyone else only knows it to varying degrees? Of course every single COG group out there claims to possess the only real version of the truth while they label all other groups to be rejectors of truth.
I think after the horrendous track record the Church of God has had in claiming possession of "the truth" and the damage it has left in its wake, that the various COG groups would be careful in making such proclamations, especially considering their version of truth has led to the hundreds and hundreds of splits. Truth is a rare commodity in all of the splinter groups in 2018
Hold On to The Truth: The Apostle Paul admonished Christians to “Prove all things: hold fast that which is good [right and true]” (1 Thessalonians 5:21, KJV). David wrote “Your law is truth” and “all Your commandments are truth” (Psalm 119:142, 151). The apostles warned that people would leave the truth, resist the truth, turn their ears away from the truth and speak evil of the truth (2 Timothy 2:18; 3:8; 4:4; 2 Peter 2:2) because they did not love the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10). The history of the early Church shows how this happened as the truth of the gospel was lost and replaced by pagan ideas and practices. However, these same practices are being repeated today. I recently visited the East Texas community of Big Sandy that was once the home of Ambassador College and a Church congregation of over 1,000 members. Today, the college is gone, and in this small town of 1,300 people, there are about a half dozen little congregations that once met together on the campus of Ambassador College. These congregations have either retained or rejected the truth in various degrees—just as Jesus prophesied (Matthew 24:4-5). To avoid being deceived and led astray, we need to follow Paul’s admonition and “continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them” (2 Timothy 3:13-14). Brethren, let’s prove and hold on to the Truth!
Have a profitable Sabbath,
Douglas S. Winnail
For many years now we have heard from former Restored Church of God members and from Dave Pack himself on how everything is "in common" because as God's only true representative on earth, he and he alone is the rightful heir to all money, property, retirement income and anything else he can con people out of.
Thanks to the constant flow of money into his compound he lives rent-free in a church-owned home, drives a church-owned car (on the rare occasions he says he drives off the compound) and receives a large salary. With all of the money flowing in he has been able to build the most superfantabulous campus the world has ever laid eyes on. The place reeks of money, but don't tell that to the employees though.
Most corporations, churches, and small businesses provide coffee, tea, and snacks for the employees as a thank-you for services well done. Dave Pack takes this one step further though, he does provide coffee for the employees BUT charges EVERYONE $15.00 a month to partake. With 20 employees that would take in over $300.00 a month in coffee taxes. 20 people do NOT drink that much coffee and tea or use that many sugars, cream, stirrers, napkins, etc. Even if you don't drink his coffee you still required to pay the coffee tax.
Can Dave Pack truly be this big of a cheapskate?
I'm just glad I don't have to WASTE 15 dollars a month on the RCG mandatory coffee fund anymore. That alone was one of the things that made me realize these people were money hungry. Every single employee was forced to pay 15 dollars a month whether they were a drinker of coffee or not for this fund that most likely always had excess cash left.
The coffee tastes burnt and you got basic cream, honey, and coffee. At my current Job, they offer more than seven varieties of coffee and even more varieties of creams, sweeteners, and toppings. They are constantly boosting employees moral by allowing us to matter, and express our ideas on how to make the company more efficient, they celebrate us, give bonuses as they are able, pay into our health. Guess what, employees add value to this company.
At RCG, people pay 1st tithe, 2nd tithe, 3rd tithe, tithe of tithe, excess second tithe must be returned after FOT, offerings, coffee fund (Employees only), spokesman club fees, members are exhorted to pay into the funds for socials, must participate in fundraising which is never to the outside world but between congregations and on and on and on. This is all truly exacerbated when you work directly at rcg and are expected to wear, suits, ties, oxford shoes, maintain a clean haircut look, shave, have crisp ironed dressed shirts and shined shoes, eat healthily, maintain a decent vehicle and clean home, host for visiting members, all WHILE MAKING MINIMUM WAGE OR VERY CLOSE TO IT.
Then employees are spoken down to and made small in staff meetings and no one likes to raise their hand and offer suggestions or express concerns because the "baby face""golden boys""yes men" who do nothing but gossip about each others counsel sessions with members will pounce on you and correct you for appearing to cause "DIVISION".
I CANT HELP BUT POUR OUT MY HEART WHEN I SEE THESE POSTS. THIS PLACE IS THE TRUE SWAMP THAT NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP.
I feel pain for the good people still there being tossed to and from like chaff in the wind.
The shocking news from Jamaica is that Ian has died. Ian was the only COG minister who had the integrity to talk across the aisle with those he disagreed with and also had the wherewithal to acknowledge that Armstrongism was fatally flawed and needed to be reinvented it is to survive. He knew firsthand how Thiel, Flurry, Pack, Malm and others were ripping members lives apart with their legalism and outright lies.
I had several discussions with Ian over the last couple of years and we were both surprised at the things we agreed upon. Many times he said he was almost getting to the point of being borderline agnostic at times. Eh was widely read in his interests in books which included books on atheism, evolution, cults and other issues.
RJRNews had this to say:
Ian Boyne is dead
Veteran Journalist Ian Boyne is dead.
Mr. Boyne died this morning at the University Hospital of West Indies in St. Andrew.
Mr. Boyne was hospitalised earlier this month and was released shortly after.
He was host of Profile and Religious Hardtalk, aired on our sister station Television Jamaica (TVJ), as well as a columnist for the Sunday Gleaner.
In his early years, Ian Boyne worked with the Jamaica Information Service (JIS), then known as the Agency for Public Information (API) in the seventies.
He also worked for various public sector agencies, serving the Government of Jamaica in the area of public information.
He returned to the JIS at the turn of the century and at the time of his death was the agency's Deputy Executive Director. There, he hosted the agency's interview programme, Issues and Answers.
Ian Boyne was perhaps best known as host of Television Jamaica's long running interview show, Profile, which started in the early 80s on the predecessor station, JBC TV, and for his weekly column in the Sunday Gleaner.
His interview with eight time Olympic Gold Medalist Usain Bolt is one of his most memorable on Profile.
A decade and a half ago, he was asked to host Religious Hardtalk, a new programme on RJR94 FM.
Shock And Grief ... Social Media Reactions To Ian Boyne's Passing
There has been an outpouring of shock and grief on social media following the passing of veteran journalist Ian Boyne.Boyne passed away in hospital this morning after a brief illness.
He had only recently suffered a series of heart attacks and was at home recovering but had to be readmitted on the weekend.
Here are some of the comments posted on Twitter:
@AndrewHolnessJM: It is with deep sadness that I acknowledge the death of veteran journalist and a true friend Ian Boyne. This is a shock to me. I will make a statement soon.
@karendmadden: Even Jamaica's dancehall referenced Ian Boyne. Man crossed every walk of life.
Cordel Green: "He held a neutral space in a polarised environment. He leaves a legacy which will serve as a solid guidance and foundation of reliable quality and substance."
@VicMelhadoDaley: A phenomenal journalist and legend has passed but has left a great legacy behind; may his soul RIP. #Condolences to his family.
@kryticalmind: Waking up to such disheartening news about Mr. Boyne. He fed families with inspiration through the profiles of Jamaican and Black Excellence. Immeasurable impact on the psyche and aspirations of many, including my own. A life well spent and well lived, Ian.
@yaneekpage: I can’t even process the magnitude of this loss for Jamaica. Devastated. Rest well Ian Boyne More here: Jamaica Gleaner
"Boyne was excited to share the discovery that ‘Profile’ may possibly have the distinction of being the second longest programme with a single host in the world."
"With ‘Profile’, Boyne emphasises that especially in today’s crazy and chaotic society where selfishness and self serving individuals are almost the norm, people need an outlet where they can see the other side. Where they can witness stories of individuals who are philanthropic; who beat their demons; who rise about their circumstance and are winners in their own right and chosen field of endeavour. This is why after three decades, ‘Profile” still has such immense appeal."
Published:Tuesday | December 19, 2017 | 12:02 AM
A week ago, having emerged from an induced coma and appearing to be on the mend from a heart attack, Ian Boyne, a man of deep religious faith, declared himself to be a miracle. It was for the fact that he was alive and looking forward to return to his job as a journalist.
Mr Boyne, 60, died yesterday. Some people might claim that he spoke prematurely. But from the perspective of a secularist, he may, indeed, have been a miracle - in the sense of being a man of deep and varied intellectual interests, with a capacity for sustained and concentrated effort which, for more than 40 years, he shared with Jamaicans through his journalism.
There were two critical elements to Ian Boyne's journalism, especially in the columns he wrote for The Sunday Gleaner and the discussion programmes he hosted on television: he was laden with facts and, generally, was open to debate. He may have been intellectually vain, as some will no doubt argue, but his larger aim was to stimulate discourse, hoping it would redound to the benefit of Jamaica.
Ian Boyne was not partisan, but ideological, in the sense that he brought to his journalism a specific, and, in many respects, a distinct perspective. At one level, he is a product of the times in which he came of age: the ideological period of the 1970s, when the Left and the Right contended for primacy.
Of a fashion, he was of the Left. His pronouncements were empathetic to a state that intervened on behalf of its most vulnerable citizens, and against the notion that the market had all the best answers to the organisation of an economy. So, in recent years, he often inveighed against the Washington Consensus.
But his was an ideology that wasn't the outcome merely of rational, secular empiricism. Mr Boyne, too, was a Christian scholar and pastor who ran a church. His viewpoints were shaped as much by the Bible as by the writings of the philosophers, humanists, ethicists, foreign-policy analysts, and others he so readily imbibed and often quoted in his columns, which often elicited playful ribbing from follow columnist Gordon Robinson, who conferred on his the sobriquet, 'Booklist Boyne'.Further down in the article this was said:
...he, for 30 years, produced a weekly television programme in which he interviewed Jamaicans who had mostly risen from poverty or other adversity to positions of prominence and power. Critics will perhaps claim that some of these interviews were filled with saccharine sentimentality, but there can be little doubt that they were mostly uplifting and offered hope.
As a theologian whose entry in biblical disquisition started in Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God and the fragmentations therefrom, Ian Boyne was willing to debate the worth and value of Christianity - and other religions - in a secular world and to put these on show in his television, programme, 'Religious Hardtalk'.
Mr Boyne had a passion for Jamaican music of the 1960s and '70s and could hold erudite arguments about the artistes of the day, even as he vehemently decried the nihilism of the lyrics of many of today's dancehall performers, who, he believed, contributed to the coarsening of Jamaican society.
Another side of Ian Boyne is that he was mostly self-taught. He would have been a fine subject of one his 'Profile' interviews, to explore the basis of his catholic interests and from whence the will, or miracle, for their achievement.It is a rare thing for a follower of a person with ties to Armstrongism to receive such public praise. No minister or church leader has ever been "willing to debate the worth of and value of Christianity - and other religions..." I wish I had been able to have more contact with Ian than I did.
Bobby Downer is back with his prophetic bloomers all in a twist today over the New Years Day Mummers Parade in Philadelphia PA. Bitter Bob Thiel says all of the men. women and children who dress in costumes to have fun on a cold winter day are all worshippers of Saturnalia. I'm pretty sure Almost-ordained Bob imagines them sacrificing those children on fires afterwards.
Of course, those who have looked into the whole ‘Christmas/New Years’ season realize that Jesus was not born on December 25th and that the dates and many observances were modifications from pagan practices. Mummers parades seem to be an offshoot of that.
Those who have looked into the Bible realize that neither Saturnalia, Mummers, Mithras, or Christmas observances are biblical. Because of their connections to paganism and distortions to God’s plan as revealed in His Holy Days, they should not be kept by Christians.
Almost-arrested Bob also had this to say aboutEarly Christians did not even celebrate birthdays of any type, and certainly none to honor sun-gods or other pagan deities.
I have seen more raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking and gift giving at the Feast of Tabernacles than I have ever seen people in my neighborhood or at church do. Having worked ministerial dining rooms in Pasadena and other Feast sites I can testify that the COG ministry LOVES its alcohol!In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.
Elijah Amos Thiel needs to get this own house in order before he starts condemning others for perceived imperfections. Lying that God has set him apart from all other COG's to start a new church that has the only inside track to salvation or Petra, is far worse than some playful fun on New Years Day.
It's very difficult for humans to say the words "He/she/they died." What a marvelous number of euphemisms for death we have. We pass on, croak, kick the bucket, go home, expire, succumb, leave, meet our maker, go to our reward, get wasted, check out, eternally rest, are a goner, end, bite the dust, get liquidated, terminated and annihilated. We give up the ghost, make the change, transition, get mertilized, go to to the other side, fall asleep, get taken, rubbed and snuffed out. We depart, transcend and buy the farm. We are feeling no pain, lose the race, cash in, cross Jordan and go with the angels. We get done in, translate into glory, return to the dust, wither away, give up, take the long sleep and a dirt bath. It can be curtains, a dropped body, six feet under and out of our misery. We find everlasting peace, new lives the great beyond, ride into the sunset and that's all we wrote. But in plain fact, we are dead.
I was told when I got glasses "you are deteriorating at the appropriate rate Dennis." Great....
All of religion is predicated on the fact that we have to go somewhere after death. "We" being everything from our spirit and energy to our mind and ethereal body. We like it better if there is a good place for the nice ones of us and a bad one for the jerks. Although the idea of reincarnation lends itself to allowing everyone their spot after having learned lessons along the way many times over.
Western Churches spend your lifetime convincing you that their understanding is THE only understanding of what happens when we die and usually provide you with a program whereby you can leave your worldly goods, you know the ones they told you in sermons not to store up on, to them. I have seen many a family outside the particular denomination of the one who "went home" have to face the fact that all the goodies went to their church and not their family.
Let's make a rule that if a person gives a church their stuff after they die, and sons or daughters protest, the Church has to give it back to the family. This will help the church to practice what they preach and give that which actually belongs to a family to the family it actually belongs to. Beware of Churches who have a program for you to "honor God with your death," or "Your will, a way for you to continue giving after you die," program. The money given to the Church will be mis-spent and it would be more satisfying to have your kids mis-spend it than your church. Amen
It's funny how if you ask someone about quantum physics or how life works, it's such an unknowable mystery in the final analysis, at least for now. But ask a religious person about what happens after death, and pfffft...that's easy. We go to heaven, they go to hell, we get reincarnated often, we are deader than dead, we wait in the grave until Jesus returns, we rise in a physical body, we rise in a spiritual "body", we this and that as if they knew and the truth is that they don't. Westerners would never question the Bible as knowing what happens after death even though one can find all of the above mentioned in one form or another in the pages of the Bible.
Quantum physics now speculates we all simply live in a simulation for only supreme programmer knows why.
Like Humans, the Biblical understanding of death evolved into what we see in the Evangelical Christian Church today.
Missionaries rush to save the lost before they die while admitting, in some circles that if they left them ignorant, a loving God would automatically translate them into heaven upon death. I mean, they can't help it they were born in New Guinea or the Great Plains.
Geronimo was asked by the General who hunted him down and imprisoned him in Florida if he wanted to go to heaven when he died? Geronimo asked if the General was also going to be there? "Why of course," came the response met by as simple "Then no" by Geronimo. Hell would indeed be for many having to spend eternity with those that drove them nuts in this life!
I mean, do you really want to spend eternity closer than ever to all the people in your church, including the same pastor day and night forever! I think not! Heaven just might seem like one big endless potluck of boring people who are still pretending to be what they never were back on earth. It would be an eternal obligatory Thanksgiving or Christmas with the relatives that most never wanted to attend anyway!
Nope, if I get to go to heaven, please God, let there be quiet places where no one can find me and those I want to be around. You know, kinda like we can do down here if we choose.
I saw a lot of death as a minister. Sometimes it was after the fact long enough to just bury somone in a nice funeral service in a nice setting. Sometimes I found myself standing at the edge of a river while they searched for a lost one or taken to a morgue to roll the dead body of a child or friend out of a drawer for a private family look. I Even dug a grave once on a farm while we waited for family to arrive for a quick same day funeral and burial. I've picked up the cemains, ugh what a word, of people I had just talked to a few days earlier, now reduced to about 10 lbs. of gray sand. I have transported the neatly wrapped body of a newborn to another city in the backseat of my car, as the couple could not afford for the funeral home to do it.
Once I had visited a mother, just socially, who spent much of the visit recounting the talents, skills, and beauty of daughter, which is normal when a parent is well pleased. I specifically remember thinking on the way home "how would she cope if she lost that daughter, who was the center of all the mom lived for? When I got home, the phone was ringing and I was returning to the hospital where this young woman had just been brought fatally run down at 18 miscrossing a street. Tough stuff. I lost a nephew to a train that could not get his attention while he was wearing his walkman. I lost my two brother in laws suddenly in life.
The point seems to live in the moment, staying both out of the past of our lives, where we tend to store our anger and hurt, and also the future, where we store our anxiety and all that is unknowable. No one knows what happens at death. Just to say that is to stir the pot of religious surety. I know, no one but YOU knows because you read it somewhere.
There are some great stories of past lives recalled by some with uncanny detail. Hmmm, could be.
Even the Bible gives the account of the blind man who caused the disciples to ask if the man's blindness was the fault of his parents or HIS own sin, "that he was BORN blind." We at least have to admit there is room there to question that if one is born blind due to sin, the sin must have taken place in a previous life. No other explanation is possible. Some in the early church believed in reincarnation. General George Patton was famous for his knowing where he had fought as a Roman Soldier in a previous life, while fighting again during WWII in Europe. He wasn't kidding and no one made fun of him either.
There are stories of those who have left their bodies in near death experiences only to return and recount the experience in detail that only a, well "Ghost" could give. They got recalled to finish their lives evidently and everyone who experiences such a thing never again fears death. Well worth the experience if only for that little peace of mind, I'd say.
Stories abound of those who were given organ transplants donated by those who have died, only to mysteriously acquire the deceased's taste in foods, books or familiarity with topics never studied in their own lives. This would give credence to the idea tha cellular memory can be passed on. Whoa..pretty inspiring stuff and not just a little bit spooky.
Crass religions make big bucks off the masses who need to purchase their places in the Kingdom of God. I remember once shoveling a drive buried in feet of snow for a woman who then paid me in Catholic indulgences. They gave me a full 90 days less in Purgatory. I told her I was Presbyterian. She smiled and closed the door. I almost shoved the snow back into the drive.
I'm glad that so many can be so sure they know what happens at death. Some just know because they read it in the Bible never thinking that even that book is just another attempt by humans to figure this out. Some just know it's true because it's "true for me." Some feel that it just has to be true or what's the point. One cannot just die for nothing after learning all this stuff in life and having all these experiences.
When one of "our own" i.e. Church related person, dies, devil or demon, we hardly know what to say. We tend to say nice things about those we somewhat agree with or at least did not hurt us or others along the way, such as Mr. Ian Boyne recently. We always know what to say when those we revile for their narcissism and pain inflicted pass. Mostly we say nothing and let others handle that publically. But quietly, we mostly just wonder what will it be like when we get to that time or how that person might have felt in their final realizations that it was over.
It is the search that is interesting in life, not the finding. Those who think they have found it all , neatly packaged and easy to understand if they are "called" or "chosen" are cruising on pious convictions with marginal information at best. Nothing is as easy as or clear as Church of God types make it seem....
Ever since Ron Weinland's epic 2008 prophetic failure, he has been unable to keep his flock together. Then while Weinland spent 3 1/2 years in prison it imploded even faster with his loony wife and daughter masquerading as evangelists. Members refused to submit to the bumbling duo. Now, in 2017 after being released from prison, the failed prophet is having to deal with even more widespread issues in his little group.
So I marvel there are still people out there cheating in tithing, cheating God, lying to God, who don't send in holy day offerings. It's not about the money coming in; it's about the fact that we don't obey God. I hope we have the picture! Slowly but surely all those are being brought to the surface, saying sayonara, auf wiedersehen, dos vedanya, because you do not belong here. If you can lie to God like that you do not belong here. Then how many other things are hidden, that people think are hidden that are not really hidden? God knows and sees everything in our lives and either we are repenting of sin and fighting every day of our lives and placing things where they need to be in the sense of value and appreciation of what God is offering us or we're not.Apparently, his god is striking down his members who don't tithe, cheat his god, lie to his god and don't send in their holy day offerings. The magical god of Armstrongism strikes again!
And God knows. God will bring every, every single one of those things to the surface. No one will get by. Even if it just means death. See, I may not know and learn all of them, but God will take care of it, of those that aren't brought to the surface and aren't dealt with. You just die, not live into the Millennium. It's as simple as that.Weinerdude also has to deal with his member's bickering and grumbling at each other and at the ministry.
You know, I'm amazed at why people can't get along in God's Church! And this goes on and on and on from area to area to area – it just pops up too often. What excuse do we have that we can't swallow our pride and call it what it is and just shut our mouths if we have to and don't worry about how we think we're treated by someone else? Just swallow the pride and get along! That's the most important thing. We don't have to have things our way! Because that's where conflict comes from. It's when we want things to be our way. "And when it's not my way I get my feelings hurt! Boo hoo hoo, someone isn't treating me fair!" I'm sorry, but I'm sick of this stuff in God's Church. I am sick, sick, sick of it! Because that isn't in God's Church! That isn't the mind of God that He's given to us. That's not the spirit of God that reacts to people in that way.
I'll just tell you, almost every area of the Church of God right now that we travel to there's friction. Sometimes under the surface a little bit here and there, but there's still friction where people are struggling to get along. And I think, why? Who is it I can't get along with? Who is it that can't get along with me? I'm a nice guy. I'm kidding! Well, I try to be. I try to be just. I try to be right before God. I try to treat people fairly and when correction is needed I give the correction, too, with the hope and desire that people will change. It’s shepherding, loving God's people. Why can't we love God's people? Who of God's people do we not really love? Because if we're not treating them right we don't love them. Do we get the picture? If we're not treating somebody right in God's Church we don't love them, if we want them to do certain things a certain way to make us happier.People have been leaving his cult in droves and a lot of it was over his ordaining his loony wife and money laundering daughter to the rank of evangelist and for promoting his wife to a "two witnesses" status. Can you imagine these two crackpots preaching in the streets of Jerusalem?
They think it's because of women being ordained. I think of one that just comes to mind because some got upset. I think of some in Cincinnati, some leadership at the Church even at that particular time became jealous of specific individuals that were ordained, and those who were being worked with more and more. Jealousy because they didn't love them like they should have in the first place that began to bring something to the surface. It wasn't that they could say, "Oh, I don't think women should be ordained" and be righteous, and they're going to leave God's Church now because “such and such” shouldn't have been ordained and women shouldn't be ordained and whatever it might be. Something will come along to try people. That's the way it's always been in God's Church. Amazing!
A rational person would think that Church of God groups would be really cautious about writing articles on how to determine what is a counterfeit church, especially considering how fractured the Church of God movement is, with every single one of the groups preaching a different message. But no, they have not learned to keep their mouths shut. Every single one of them, in their self-righteous glory, think they have the inside track and everyone else is wrong, even other COG's.
The latest entry in the "one true church" schtick is Church of God a Worldwide Association (COGWA). Clyde Kilough has an article in the latest Discern magazine, How to Spot a Counterfeit Church.
We see this at work today in the likes of James Malm and his Wiccan sidekick Constance who envisions herself as a discerner of the Word, in Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, Gerald Flurry, and most of the other church leaders in the Church of God today. Pharisaical laws, damaging legalism and outright lies make these leaders the epitome of the Pharisaical tactics mentioned above.
For well over 80 years now, the Church of God has been filled with deceitful workers and hundreds of false apostles and prophets. Every single one of them liars and deceivers of the brethren. The sad part is that they all put on the air of righteousness and members fall for their vile schtick and get wrapped up in their lies. Look at the followers of Thiel, Malm, Pack, Flurry and the others. Given the track record of upstart false prophets in the COG, these men should never have a single follower, but they do. They try to transform themselves into workers of righteousness, yet they are agents of darkness. This includes Clyde Kilough and his fellow workers of darkness. He and his team of men threw a tantrum and split off from United Church of God, preaching their own version of what they claim is the truth. They imagined themselves as teachers and holders of the keys to the kingdom, so much so that they formed their own group and yet they preach a different message than any of the other COG's.
Kilough then writes this:
Look at the hundreds and hundreds of Churches of God in the world today, representing differing interpretations of what Christ did and said when they decide to mention him. Yet, the majority of COG members do not see this as a problem. Somehow they all see themselves as unified by some illogical thread. They never stop to examine the authenticity of what they claim to believe.
Most Church of God leaders and members have never really studied church history. The only version of it they know is what their respective church leader has spoon feed them as the "authentic" version. Any real student of church history knows the fascinating story of the growth of Christianity and the church through the centuries. It has never died out nor did it need to be restored after being lost by an impotent god for 1,900 years.
If Kilough and other church members truly believe that "God is not the author of confusion" then why are there 500-700 different splinter Churches of God? Why did they contribute to the mess by starting yet another group? Is that not confusion?
Surely all of the Churches of God cannot be wrong? Which one is right? Every single one of them picks and chooses which teachings they want to keep and thus setting them apart from the next COG.
Which COG leader is right? Thiel? Malm? Pack? Kubik? FLurry? Are they genuine or are they liars and deceivers of the brethren?
Every time a Church of God splits off this is exactly what has happened.They pick and choose which doctrines they want to keep and reshape the church into what they want it to be.
No Church of God leader or member has ever kept the 10 Commandments or any other other commandments. It is an impossibility. To say they do is to deliberately lie. They cannot be humanly all kept. The Jesus they all claim to follow has said over and over that they cannot do it and won't do it.
Kilough, Malm, Thiel and all the others have never kept the commandments. When they deny the one they claim to follow and place the law above that ever so inconvenient dude they are not "abiding in My love."
People can say they “abide in Christ,” but do they keep the commandments? That’s the test, isn’t it? If you are looking for the Church Jesus built, start looking for those who are striving to walk as He walked. Sad to say, “commandment-keeping” immediately crosses a huge number off the list.Seriously? Are we to look at the hundreds and hundreds of self-appointed prophets and leaders as followers of a "Jesus" they know nothing about? The 10 commandments are no more a "test" than the Sabbath is. Because these men all deny the Christ they claim to follow, they are immediately crossed off the list.
What is the truth in the COG? Every group has hundreds and hundreds of nonbiblical doctrines and practices. The Philadelphia Church of God is different than United Church of God, which is different than the Restored Church of God, which is different than Church of God International, which is different than Intercontential Church of God, which is different than COGWA, which is different than "continuing" Church of God.
Where does truth reside now? The Churches of God love to mock the different divisions in Christianity and even call them "so-called" Christians, yet their own church is so fractured now that it is irrelevant with none of them doing any worthwhile work that is changing lives.
Where are the fruits of the spirit? Where are the good works? Where is Jesus?
Just when you think false prophet and so-called true Christian Bitter Bob Thiel can't get any crazier he goes and writes another idiotic post for his blog. The more this guy writes the weirder he is getting. He focuses on the most irrelevant things and makes them into issues where there is nothing to be found.
Bitter Bob is incensed that a former leader of the Church of God 7-Denver is asking for cookies to deliver to prisoners in jail over the holidays. Cookies, mind you, just some cookies to prisoners.
Bitter Debbie-downer Bob writes:
He then goes into a typical COG rant on how pagan Christmas is and that the early Christians did not keep it. The same standard baloney we have all heard. But then he has to add this:A former Church of God, Seventh day-Denver (CG7) member forwarded me the following from an email by Bruce Noble, who was the once the Chair; CG7 (Denver) General Conference Nominating Committee:Help, I need help! Christ birthday is just around the corner and it’s time to celebrate.
Actually we should celebrate all the time, but we get to do it in the Shiawassee Jail on December 23rd, this year. So once again I need your help. We need homemade cookies individually wrapped, with no staples or strings, just like you like for your family along with individually wrapped candies.
These are given to the inmates in a way, that shows God Loves them, every year we see people come to Christ through this out pouring of your Love.
We need the cookies and candy delivered December 22nd @ 6:30 at St Pauls Episcople Church, in Corunna so we can pack them.
While visiting prisoners is a good thing to do (cf. Matthew 25:36-40), giving prisoners Christmas cookies is certainly not a spiritually nor physically healthy thing to do.Seriously, can this man never see goodness or kindness in ANYTHING? Some cookies for prisoners are certainly NOT going to that unhealthy and certainly are NOT spiritually damaging. How pathetic can Thiel get?
Bitter Bob was so incensed that he had to put a call into COG7 current President expressing his shock and dismay and got this response from CG7's President:
To confirm that this still is CG7-Denver’s view, today I spoke with its President Loren Stacey.
It is no wonder people look at Church of God members as daft so much of the time, when buffoonish leaders like Bitter Bob act so childish? As the days pass by, I can see why Rod Meredith turned his back on Thiel.Loren Stacey stated that CG7-Denver does not observe Christmas nor the other worldly holidays that many who profess Christ do.
Bitter Almost-arrested Bob Thiel is far more unhealthy and spiritually damaging than some Christmas cookies will ever be!
Vic Kubik made a telling remark the other day on the UCG web page about their Winter Family Weekend.
One of the biggest weeks of the year for us here in Cincinnati begins Friday evening with the annual Winter Family Weekend. It is the largest gathering of United Church of God members in one place. It will be larger than any Feast site.
The theme this year is “In the world, but not of the world” based on Jesus Christ’s final prayer for His disciples in John.
This year, we have more players registered for basketball and volleyball with about a dozen more teams. All available rooms at the Great Wolf Lodge were immediately sold out.Did you catch the comment above? Their Christmas weekend gathers more people together than any of their Feast sites are capable of doing.
It seems it is more important for members to play and have fun than it is to sit and listen to one
butt-numbing sermon after another at a Feast site.
UCG members will be walking by all the lights, great smelling baked items and wonderful food with ear plugs in because after all, they are in the world but not of the world.
You and I both know that many UCG members will be humming along to Christmas carols, eating Christmas candy and cookies and soaking up the holiday ambience of all the beautiful Christmas decorations and lights.
Merry Christmas UCG! Merry Christmas!
LU Apparel Give-Away This Weekend in Charlotte NC
Greetings to all of you,
For those of you attending the Charlotte Family Weekend this weekend, we will be giving away remaining LU apparelmorning at the hotel. We will have an LU booth set up outside the meeting rooms beginning at , between the seminar sessions at , and for a short while after the seminars at . We will be giving apparel away to all brethren, but wanted you as current and past LU students to have the opportunity to pick something first. We would recommend you come by the booth before in order to have the best selection.
For those of you who will not be attending the weekend, we are very sorry we cannot offer this apparel to you at this time. For those of you who are finishing up the Fall semester, congratulations on a job well done!!
May you all have a wonderful and uplifting Sabbath.
Warm regards, Scott Winnail