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Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. Every crazy, weird and wacky quote is straight from the pens of Armstrongite leaders or members who think they possess some insight into God and the Bible. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!

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    Super Dave

    Dave's own words:
    I want to hold up a tool here and explain something that is coming, and you can maybe appreciate from afar little more than the fact that it is a long list, two pages. A list of the sequence of events from now till we’re inside the final phase of the Kingdom of God. Absolutely everything that is going to happen, I have put into a list that I’m told everybody will be thrilled to see. I actually got the idea before I heard from Mr. Kaidannek and some others how much you brethren here and around the world would love such a list. Well, it now exists. It’s currently got 83 separate points on it, and I’ll selectively read a few just so you can kind of appreciate… 
    Point number 12: The first two shepherds are cut off inside a month from Christ’s Coming. 
    Point 43: The famine of the Word occurs in Judea only, with the Gospel continuing worldwide and also in nations of Israel. 
    Point 67: The whole house of Israel, billions, is resurrected. 
    And there are many, many other details in here…I would say down to almost exquisite detail…that form a single list, in order of everything that is going to happen from the very book of Daniel being unsealed, which is the first thing on the list, all the way to the Kingdom of God has come in its full and final form, and what that means. 
    So, before I give it to the Church, I would like all of you to know that, because of what’s at stake—and, I’m going to release it. There’s never been a document like it. Nobody has ever put all these things together. The list is still growing, and therefore, I want it to be…number one, thorough. I want it to be crystal clear and easy to read, and I want it to be right. And so, before we give it to you, I want to be sure that I have achieved those three goals. 
    Probably, there will be a few verses included here and there in various places on the list, and in most cases though, there will not be, because every teaching aid cannot contain everything or it would be just massive. But when you put them all together, then all these aids that we’re producing provide all the answers that people want. If they want detail, they can…they can, of course, read the transcripts. 
    There is a point up to which this project would be too thin, not any meat on the bones, and therefore, not as useful as it could be. There is a point past which, maybe it’s sort of a range in there, a place past which it’s too much, too long and too detailed. So I want to strike that balance as well and leave you with something that is enormously helpful. It will cause a firestorm in the splinters, I promise you. Tens of thousands, scores of thousands of people will see it. It will be eventually, I’m sure, shared far and wide in places we can’t imagine. Hence, again, the need for it to be thorough, clear and right. 
    Nothing, again, like it obviously could have ever been produced before because first, the prophets, who were prophets, did not understand even what the apostles were taught by Christ personally. The apostles did not understand what John was taught, in the book of Revelation, after they’d all died. John didn’t understand what Mr. Armstrong came to know 2,000 years later, essentially—19 centuries later—because he saw various heads of the beasts in Daniel line up with Revelation, and he saw the Church eras play out, and he could speak with a greater authority. But let’s face it, Mr. Armstrong did not understand anything that’s been in the last 64…Now here is Part 65…sermons in the newness of those parts. He understood much of it, of course, where we’ve referenced things. So there never has been or ever will be a tool like this again, and I’ll just say one last time, hence the need that it is thorough, clear and right.

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    From Exit and Support.

    A person describes the joy they have when leaving the abusive Philadelphia Church of God.   This is the same joy that thousands have shared on different FB pages as they talk how their lives have been since leaving the church.

    June 29, 2017
    I don't even know where to begin. It's so difficult to summarize my experience and sort out how I'm feeling about everything that this so called "church" has put me, my family, and countless others through. The abuses that we undergo are covered up kept hush-hush and resolved through gossip started by who knows. I started becoming very skeptical when my own family began to be ripped apart by the ministry, who were not to be questioned ever! Every problem was pushed back on us not having it all together, or not praying and studying. No biblical proof was offered, just the opinion of a man who thought he spoke with God's authority--although certainly not with God's LOVE. It's so clear to me now why no one was ever allowed to compare stories or talk about counseling sessions. They did not want us comparing notes on our interactions with the ministry.  
    But my last service was when our local minister aired all my family's dirty laundry in front of the congregation, blaming everything on my father's inability to lead. Taking no responsibility for his own interference and meddling. FURIOUS. I left knowing I'd never be back. I told no one and refused to talk to anyone after. A clean cut was the best resolve for me. I was so sick of being dragged into everyone's drama when I had no part in it. And I was certainly tired of feeling beaten down--not good enough and chastised every week at services. Also, if I missed a week, I felt like a child being scolded. I wish I'd left sooner. No, I wish I never would have attended at all.  
    Since I've been out, I've been happier than I thought possible. I'm happy to let God judge me. At least it will be true justice. If anyone is considering leaving, do it now. I waited years and regret it deeply. I will mourn family left in and pray they leave. --Raised in WCG; joined PCG as adult

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    Living Church of God wants you to know that it is doing all it can to assist the homeless and those who have no hope.  Just exactly what is it doing?  Are members volunteering in local homeless shelters?  Are they making hot meals for the homeless?  Does LCG open its doors to its meeting halls in the winter to shelter the homeless and feed them? What about those without hope in their own town of Charlotte?  Is the church contributing to international organizations that assist war refugees?

    What do you think they are doing?

    Here is what they are doing. As they are ensconced in their warm homes after a hearty meal, they are to think about those who are homeless, displaced and without hope.  That apparently is a great comfort to those in need and alleviates LCG members from actually having to associate with a dirty urine-stained homeless person or to really provide comfort to a person who no longer has any hope in life.

    When has Rod McNair ever washed a homeless person's feet or fed one of them a hot meal?  When has Gerald Weston stooped down to care for a homeless veteran laying on the sidewalk?  When have the students at the most incredible "university" in the world volunteered at a homeless shelter or worked a suicide prevention hot line?  When has the elite ministry of the church ever gotten their hands dirty or their suits soiled?

    Wiping away a tear as you watch some tragedy on the news as you "feel" concern is nothing like putting your feet to the pavement and doing beneficial deeds.

    Oh wait, I forgot!  God's going to fix it all in the end, so why waste resources on the homeless when it can be better used to publish the Tomorrow's World magazine.  Most LCG ministers will totally miss the irony in that.  God forbid if they might actually have to get off their pampered butts to bring a foretaste of that Kingdom to the world today.
    Homeless and Hopeless: How many people long for a place to call home? How many people globally do have a place they call home? According to a new United Nations study, “One person [is] forced to flee their home every three seconds by war and violence” (The Guardian, June 19, 2017). This translates into over 65 million displaced persons in 2016! The study notes that the majority of these displaced people are refugees and half of them are children! If you have a peaceful place to call home, do you realize how blessed you are?  Are you able to feel concern and compassion for the tens of millions who are on the move, living in unsafe and unsanitary conditions? Stable homes and families are two criteria that are used to identify the ever-elusive human state of peace. Peace is something that everyone seeks and few are able to truly attain. Government agencies and politicians strive for peace, but often little is achieved. The prophet Jeremiah warned that the time would come when the leaders of the world would claim “‘Peace, peace!’ when there is no peace” (Jeremiah 6:148:11, 15). However, Jesus Christ is going to return to this earth and usher in a true time of peace in the Kingdom of God (Isaiah 9:6-7). The God of the Bible states about this exciting future, “My people will dwell in a peaceful habitation, in secure dwellings [homes], and in quiet resting places” (Isaiah 32:18). 

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    There have been many great discussions on various COG Facebook pages from people where were abused by parents and ministers as they grew up.  With so many narcissists and psychopaths in leadership positions of various COG's it has lead to some horrendous stories being revealed, particularly by children of psychopath parents in the church, whether members or ministers.

    Here's Why Psychopaths Are Unable to Love Their Own Children

    The effects are devastating.
    by Lindsay Dodgson
    "Narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths do not have a sense of empathy, they do not and will not develop a sense of empathy, so they can never really love anyone," she told Business Insider.
    This doesn't change when they have children. There's no primal instinct to protect and encourage their offspring, because they are not seen as a separate entity. They are merely a tool which is at their disposal.
    "DTPs tend to see children as an extension of themselves and a possession," Neo said.
    "So rather than saying, 'I'm going to nurture you so you can grow up to be the amazing person you're meant to be,' [they say] 'you're supposed to grow up and do this so that you're my trophy.'"
    This is very different from the environment a child in a healthy family would grow up in. Instead of being nurtured and taught the ways of the world, a child of a DTP parent grows up not knowing their own sense of self.
    "'I can check your phone, I can do anything I want to do, I can just barge into your room, basically not respecting your sense of property,'" is what Neo said DTP personalities believe.
    "There are no emotional boundaries, either. So the children grow up not really sure about what boundaries are."
    The child is expected to fill all kinds of functions they shouldn't have to. For example, narcissists tend to be very unhappy people, with low self esteem, so they unload a lot of unnecessary emotional baggage onto their children.
    They are used as a listening ear for the parent's problems, and a source of emotional comfort.
    This continues over the years, and Neo says some of her clients have said their parents told them: "The only reason I had you was so you could take care of me for the rest of your life."
    "You're not allowed to have children, and you're not allowed to get married," she added. "The parent would be meddling in all these different relationships, left right and centre, creating all sorts of drama, so the child stays single."
    'The child is expected to be a punching bag'
    Throughout their life, the child is also expected to be a punching bag, either physically or emotionally. This becomes harder as the child grows older, because they become stronger and more aware, so the DTP parent will counteract this by hacking away at their self esteem.
    "As the parents grows older, and their health starts to decline, their sense of self esteem becomes really shaky," Neo said.
    "Then the child grows up, becomes strong, becomes powerful, has more of a sense of self, and it's very difficult for the parent to watch. So there becomes this unhealthy competition, putting the child down, telling the child they're fat, they're useless, they're ugly."
    At the same time, whenever the child accomplishes something, the parent has to take credit for it.
    For example, they would mention the fact the child is a very good trumpet player, and the only reason is because they scrimped and saved for lessons for years, even if this may not be true.
    "Every single thing is always brought back to them," Neo said. "So the child is brought up thinking, 'I have no sense of self, I have no say, and I do not matter.'"
    The 'golden child' vs. the scapegoat
    The dynamics shift depending on how many children the DTP has.
    Sometimes, DTPs will have more than one child, and Neo says it is remarkable how often the same power dynamics play out in these families. In most cases, one child becomes the golden child, who can do no wrong.
    "The child can live in fear, because all they want to do is please mummy or daddy so there's no trouble - so they will be loved," Neo said. "So they get this reward and it's almost transactional."
    Then the second child is used as a scapegoat, and is blamed for everything. So much so, that the DTP parent will enjoy playing the children off against each other, and create unnecessary competition.
    If there is a third child, Neo says they become the "lost boy" or the "lost girl", who is neglected and more or less completely ignored.
    "If you watch the families and see the traits of narcissistic parents, this is often what plays out," Neo said.
    "Essentially, it's designed to keep the self esteem of the child low, so the child will always stay small and as a possession, and there's a lot of dictatorship over what a child can or cannot do because it's all about the parents' sense of self."

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    One thing is for sure...the Bible is not child friendly. Actually, if you really know the book, Old and New, you will have to admit that small children must not have been much a part of the culture. The first humans were the first parents, Adam and Eve, not the first children so I imagine they have no good childhood memories. Well actually they have none since they never were children. Their kids, Cain and Abel come on the scene pretty much full grown. No pleasant times frolicking in the Garden of Eden.

    They actually show up just in time to have Cain murder his brother and get himself booted out of the Garden by God afraid of those who don't exist killing him, go figure. Seth comes along, pretty much fully grown too. We certainly get no hint that this family every had picnics, hugs or good memories of being glad they had each other. The grown kids marry, who knows who, must be sisters that weren't worth mentioning who also only show up as full grown women having babies by brothers. Ewwwwwww, but that's the alternative since they had no girls or boys next door to get their attention. There was no next door. Incest was a necessary thing, so say literalists, until they got enough humans on the planet to marry mere cousins and then people you eventually figured you weren't related to, but were.
    The main heroes of the Old Testament were adults, who in some cases were given remarkable birth and childhood mythologies to show how great an adult they really were. Often stories from previous or surrounding cultures were borrowed for the baby to show what an amazing adult he was. In the Bible, Old barren women give birth to amazing humans and in the NT, young virgins give birth to gods.

     No hospital ever gave birth to a famous child.  Abe Lincoln was never really a kid until he was a famous adult. Then we find he was so darn honest as a kid, studied by the light of one lone candle by night but did succeed in not being born of a virgin as we might not have taken that all that seriously. You never heard that the child called George Washington, "could not tell a lie," until he was famous. No one waits at the hospital for famous baby to be born. The stories of remarkable children always come when the adult becomes remarkable. After all, remarkable adults must have had remarkable childhoods. This is how Moses, David and Jesus are portrayed, but any idea that we are seeing the lives of real children is illusionary. Amazing adults are pretty ordinary kids I would imagine, unless you are Bible Times adults.
    We read about grown armies killing "men, women and children," but that's just a sanitation problem and incidental to the great exploits of Israel obeying the Loving Heavenly Father. Sometimes the children get murdered in the womb or special attention is paid to the fact that their heads were smashed against the wall. Nice touch there. Sometimes they get sacrificed as in the case or near case of Abraham and Isaac. Great story of childhood ala Bible times. Even though it worked out ok, according the script, I imagine Isaac was no longer interested in following Dad into the hills for weekend campouts. He prolly wondered what nonesense Dad was into now and passed choosing rather to hid under the table until Dad fell asleep
    Here are some of the Bible's greatest childhood hits...

    Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod [sceptre], he shall not die.
    -- Proverbs 23:13 (AV)
    This is really good to know. Beating them was fine and dandy and it doesn't say spank. It says beat with a rod! Hit with a stick. Bash with a hoe. Smash with a sceptre. The reason is because "it won't kill them." Whew...good news there.
    Execute stubborn kids
    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son ... Then shall his father and his mother ... bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
    -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (AV)
    Whoa! Excellent! No attempt to encourage or find out why this might be occurring in the child's life. Prolly is the parents beating him all the time with rods, knowing full well he won't die. He might be mentally ill, but we can attribute that to demons and not take any personal responsibility. The Bible is not big on understanding how one way of being leads to other ways of being or how abuse leads to mental illness. It's all about Dad. It's all about the parents. It's really never about the kids.
    Kids killed for mocking hero
    Some small boys came out of the city and jeered at [the prophet Elisha], saying, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" And ... he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.
    -- II Kings 2:23-24 (RSV)
    Well that should teach them. Of course the kids were making fun of Elisha's boss who was taken up in a fiery chariot and thought Elisha should give it a try. I sense they were skeptical the first rapture happened. At least, they seem not to have been convinced so as not to make fun of the man who took over after the boss left rather abruptly.
    God orders child sacrifice
    God did tempt Abraham, ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ... and offer him there for a burnt offering...
    -- Genesis 22:1-2 (AV)
    Oh I know, God didn't really mean it. He was just joshin Abe, but in those days, God's didn't Josh. If you asked God if he loved children, like WC Fields, He would have said, "If they are properly cooked." Kids just had no value and certainly no say in the fantascies of their adult parents.
    Daughter: a burnt offering
    Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return ... will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." ... and the Lord gave them into his hands.... When Jephthah returned to his home..., who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! And he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
    -- Judges 11:30-32, 34, 39 (NIV)
    So in come his sweetie, Biblical Ipod blaring and pow! "Sorry Sarah, I had a chat with God and told him if I got to win as a Bible man needs to win...well...just follow me. I'll explain it on the way." Of course, Mom just said, "Sarah, do as your father says. Love ya!" Later that night as Jephthah and Mrs. J held each other gently in bed, the both thought back on how the Lord had blessed them even though it had been a difficult day.
    I have always been inspired and informed by these two examples of what it was like being a young Bible Times girl.
    Woman must marry rapist
    If a man [meets] a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her ... He must marry the girl ... He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
    -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV)
    A marriage literally made in heaven! "Ok, I raped you. You want to kill me. You must marry who raped you and we are stuck forever or they will cut both our heads off. Kiss me and act like you mean it."
    Virgin women are war booty
    "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he [Moses] asked them.... "Now ... kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
    -- Numbers 31:1-18 (NIV)
    "So you like women do you....caught you, caught you! Ok, check out these sweet things _________. If it is not intact, kill the _________. If she is pure and new...keep her for your pleasure and enjoy boys. "I, the Lord, through my Servant Moses, the most meek man on the planet, decree it." Uh huh.
    Lets see...New Testament kids that got into the story...
    There would be demon possessed ones that Jesus heals. There would be kids that were dead that Jesus and few of the skilled Apostles resurrected, and of course Jesus himself, who had an amazing birth because he was an amazing adult. We have some great stories of Jesus killing some of his playmates for mocking him, but those books didn't make the cut. Oh yes, we have the infants slaughtered by Herod as Mary and family slipped out of town smirking "I know something you don't know," at her neighbors with small children. I know some adults were called "children of the Devil," so that counts I suppose and false churches were called whores but those would be older kids.
    No, kids don't make out so good in the Bible. They are used, abused, disowned, fried, burnt, slapped, kicked, hit, beat, sacrificed, speared, sold, eaten, ignored, marginalized and mauled. The famous ones that make it to adulthood get delievered, Angelic choirs, Kingdoms and babes galore. They get visited by Wise Men, who survived their own childhoods intact but left home as soon as they could, which is why there were called Wise Men. Bible Times were something no kid in his right mind would ever wish to return to. I'm sorry that babies were born in cultures where Bible Times parents were so ignorant of what to do next they just asked the Priests.
    There are some kids in this world today who sadly do live in Bible Times. Their parents read the Bible and faithfully follow it's loving guidelines for childrearing and interpersonal family communications. These kids learn that all they need is "the rod of correction," or be told, "because we said so that's why." The often hear, "God is not going to be happy with you," or "you might go to hell for that Johnny." Every week they get to hear the Minister remind parent and child that they must bring up that kid in the way he "should" go, should being relative to whatever the Preacher thinks they should be, so that "when they are old, they will not depart from. it." Of course most depart long before they are old just to recover and get their minds back in tact. There are American Bible Times Talibanic parents who are soaked in the childrearing techniques of the Bible (see the list above) every week or most every month. God said it, we practice it, that does it for us. Of course, when the child grows up a bit, they will walk and should.
    Go get a concordance, or topical Bible and look up "snuggle, kiss, blowbelly, "ahhh boo!", picnic, swimming, hugs, vacation, free time, love you mom, love you dad, love you son, love you sis, sports, college, education, free thinking, respect, reading, children's literature, Goldilocks, quiet time, caress, self esteem, mental health, smiling, mommy, daddy, bedtime, stuffed animals, puppets, cook out, fishing, zoo, did I say "blow bellies?" .... oh you know, the good words. Good luck... and we'll keep the flames of Molech on for ya

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    The following was received from highly reliable confidential sources regarding an explosive situation that is brewing in the Church of God Big Sandy (Dave Havir) and with Christian Education Ministries (Allie Dart.)  COGBS members are deeply concerned over recent events that have rocked the church.

    The following is a brief summary from a person (not a member of any COG) who attended the hearing at the Wood County Texas Courthouse on July 6, 2017 concerning David Havir III and his alleged improper relationship with a minor child.   David Havir III is son of Church of God Big Sandy pastor, Dave Havir.

    Current board members for Church of God Big Sandy are:

    David Havir III (Church Treasurer)

    Reg Killingly

    Carole Bald

    Ronald Avey

    Neal McIver

    Melody Eishon

    Clay Forestiere

    A few days before the hearing, David Havir III had been fired as vice president of operations at Ron Dart’s (now deceased) religious organization, Christian Educational Ministries, in Whitehouse Texas.  The current board members of CEM are:

    Allie Dart

    John Garnant (elder for United Church of God, an International   Association)

    John Beasley

    Rod Martin

    Willie Oxidyne

    The week before the hearing, David Havir III was at church youth camp at Timberline Baptist Camp in Lindale Texas.  The camp was sponsored by Church of God Big Sandy. 

    In attendance at the hearing were David Havir III, Neal McIver, the minor girl, the girl’s mother (Mrs. Rex), the girl’s father (Mr. Moody), and the minor girl’s 19 year old sister (Karina Moody).  (The minor girl’s parents are divorced.)  There was also a prosecutor representing Wood County, a lawyer representing David Havir III, and a lawyer representing Mr. Moody.

    1.    The complaint had been filed by the minor daughter’s mother, Mrs. Rex.  (Case number 2017-357.)

    2.    Prosecutor was Jim Wheeler.

    3.    The judge was Jeff Fletcher.

    4.    At the beginning of the hearing, Mr. Moody stated he was there to support his minor daughter.

    5.    The first witness was Mrs. Rex who stated that she was the mother and a member of the Church of God of Big Sandy.  She accused David Havir III of inappropriate conduct with her daughter.  The mother said she saw about 12,000 phone texts that had been sent to the daughter by David Havir III.  The daughter responded with about 9,000 texts back to David Havir III.  Mrs. Rex said that the minor daughter’s personality started changing on March 16, 2017 when Karina and Mrs. Rex were going to go prom dress shopping.  The minor daughter refused to go and wanted to stay with David Havir III.  Mrs. Rex told her that she would not be staying with him and would not be meeting with him.  The minor daughter threw a fit and became very defiant.

    6.    There were also photos sent by the minor daughter to David Havir III and the photos were shown to the judge and to Mrs. Rex only.  The prosecutor implied that the pictures were nudes.  

    7.    There were also pictures taken of the minor daughter looking out a glass door with Karina and sent to David Havir III from Karina’s and the minor daughter’s phones during their vacation.

    8.    The mother also saw the minor daughter and David Havir III ‘snuggling’ on the couch with his arm around the minor daughter.  So Mrs. Rex’s assumption was that, if they snuggled in front of her, then they did it when no one was there.

    9.    There was a cybernet app on the phone that the mother tried to use to restrict phone use.

    10.Next witness was the minor daughter’s sister, Karina.   Karina said that David Havir III and the minor daughter did ‘snuggle’ on the couch when they were around her.  She said that David Havir III was a father figure to her sister and that he was only trying to help her.  

    11.The judge’s ruling was that the relationship with the minor daughter was “definitely inappropriate.”  However, he was not ordering a restraining order at this time, but he “highly recommended” to David Havir III that he needed to change his behavior toward the minor daughter.

    Court transcripts to come.


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    This is sure to tick off James Malm and Bob Thiel when they read below how Dave Pack claims they are as satanic as the Pope and are of the synagogue of Satan, that is active in the COG movement today.  Of course, Pack also believes the Living Church of God, United Church of God, Church of God a Worldwide Association, Philadelphia Church of God and all the rest of the COG's are harboring the Synagogue of Satan in their midst.
    It’s God saying…Think of it this way…“I will expose them.” There is a group—in the splinters—who are as satanic as the Pope, if you will, but they lie about their identity. They’re the ones that are going to explode for who they are when the Man of Sin arrives, and begin to do miracles and prophesying and casting out demons in Christ’s name and He never knew them. You should ask, where did those people come from? Those people are used—through the power of the devil—to do those things. They probably don’t even fully know their own true identity. But they say they’re Christians, a spiritual Jew. Mr. Armstrong always understood Romans 2:28 and 9.
    The ministers of the various COG's are playing right into Satan's hands:
    So there are those ministers…I’ve worked with them. I know them. I know some of them aren’t converted. God has not yet exposed them. One of the great purposes of the Man of Sin, and there are many, is to expose them. “I’m going to bring them forth,” and brethren, you and I do not know who they are yet. Every man who dies in the faith gets eliminated, or just dies and he wasn’t in the faith. They have to be people who are alive, who are brought forth—the ones who run around in Christ’s Name saying “I am, I am” Luke 21:8.
    So “make” means “bring forth”—God exposes them for who they are, ending their lying cover up. Now, they’ve been plaguing God’s Church for decades. These are the evil…or ungodly men…We’ll quote Jude…who crept in unawares—who were appointed to this ungodliness—who were born to be taken and withered. But nobody knows, until the moment of separation occurs, who they are.
    Dave is right that the church is filled with evil and ungodly men.  From those that bastardize the law by making it a burden on members to lying false prophets who self-appoint themselves and leaders and ministers, the debris field of the COG is littered with these ungodly men.
    So this is God promising, “I’m going to expose them,” and then it ends with, they’re going to worship before your feet…apparently, right away. I’m going to show you that. Day 1 of the Kingdom, they’re looking at…they’re looking at your big toe. They’re going to come right to your feet and worship you, right that day, and I’m going to show you more about that. So if these people are going to come and worship you, Day 1 of the Kingdom, you ought to have some idea of who they are…not their names yet.
    It is going to be a humiliating day when Malm and Thiel are forced to kneel at Dave's feet.  What a pretty sight that will be!

    This cabal of Satanic ministers are so evil they have prevented COG members from joining Dave's church!  These men are so strong in their evilness that they have overridden the actions of the Holy Spirit.  Why is the COG filled with so many impotent gods and ministers?

    I knew, years ago, that the synagogue of Satan…As God…Eighteen years ago, I began to…I was fired, 24 years ago on Thursday, from the Worldwide Church of God, so I’ve been doing this a while and I was battling before that. And I knew there were men who were not converted. I didn’t understand God’s full purpose. But then years ago, you’ll recall my sermon, I knew there was a synagogue of Satan in the splinters. They had enormous power and ability to keep people from coming to where they should have been, and they were strong enough to overcome the efforts of the ministers who had the Holy Spirit and keep them there.
    These Dark Overlords of evil have been so powerful that they have kept COG members from joining the one true church (Dave's church.)

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    Dave Pack says the Wizards running the splinter groups are opportunistic men who have led the people astray.  For once Dave Pack has gotten something right!  From Thiel, to Malm, to Kubik, to Flurry, to Weston, the list goes on and on naming the opportunistic men who have self-appointed themselves as the "spiritual leaders" of hundreds of splinter groups.  Of course, the one man missing from the equation is Dave Pack himself.  No other man in the history of human civilization has been used by God more than Dave has.

    If all the ministers with the Holy Spirit had said the flock is going to get slaughtered, banded together and confronted a lot of the newbies that were evangelists that they knew weren’t converted, that didn’t have the weight and stature of the giants of the past—those guys would have folded their tent and blown into the wind like leaves in October. They would have been gone and the Church would have been saved. Now, it isn’t what God wanted, but a lot of people said, “Why didn’t they stand up?” and the answer is—they were never going to spare the flock. They had grown too weak, even though they were converted; but they could have confronted.
    Now…let’s fast-forward. Because men began to leave in different times and over different issues, were fired at different times…Different groups formed, nature abhors a vacuum. Wham! Opportunists stood up, and they would grab thousands of people, pull them to themselves and there’d be a whole bunch of groups instead of one.
    They were given a second chance—outside the Worldwide Church of God—to unify, and where there’s about 50,000 people in the splinters, they chose to stay under ministers…I’m talking about the ministers for a moment…under ministers who were divided, who would not give up power; who had their own doctrinal ideas, their own administrative style; believed God had chosen them and created their own narratives for why “we’re right and everybody else is wrong.” That’s what happened. And so, they wouldn’t give up power, and the brethren wanted to be together.

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    The old windbag of Wadsworth continues to dream up craziness.  Despite the fact Dave is the most powerful Church of God leader in human history, he was impotent when it came to changing the hearts of many COG ministers because the evil cabal of Wizards were hard at work thwarting his every move.  Also, the idea Tkach Sr. "cowered" at Dave's presence is laughable.
    A great frustration I was finding…About 25 years ago, I began to work a little louder and a little longer, while I was still in the Worldwide Church of God, and I talked to the senior evangelists. I knew them, just because some of them were in my family. I was on a first name basis with a lot of them, even though I was, you know, I was 40 what…43 years old, I guess, at the time. And I tried to wake them up. I found that they knew there were problems; some more than others. And I made sure to call people that I knew were not on board all the junk that was coming out, and I could not get them to galvanize and take a stand.
    Now, it wasn’t God’s purpose, I understand that…Prophecy would have been broken…but I’m trying to illustrate a point to you and it’s powerful. Had they all come together…Had all of the ministers of God around the world, who had the Holy Spirit, come together as a group and confronted Mr. Tkach, they would have cowed him in five minutes. I knew the man.
    There were a couple of times on the phone…I’m not trying to brag…I mean, he came at me and I cowed him, and I learned over time, as long as he, Mr. Armstrong, was still alive, that man would not touch me. There were times he would say things to me and I would say, “That’s not true,” or he’d threaten me, and I…I had a couple of moments…it was tense.

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    Dave Pack still cannot get over the fact that tens of thousands of Church of God members refused to follow him into the Restored Church of God.  He is still butthurt over that.  Dave claims that all the COG members were given a second chance, once he started his own group, to reside where the truth is.  Instead,  they chose to stay under the sway of the self-appointed conniving snakes that have started all of the splinter groups.  Dave is starting to sound like Bob Thiel, constantly butthurt over something.

    If all the ministers with the Holy Spirit had said the flock is going to get slaughtered, banded together and confronted a lot of the newbies that were evangelists that they knew weren’t converted, that didn’t have the weight and stature of the giants of the past—those guys would have folded their tent and blown into the wind like leaves in October. They would have been gone and the Church would have been saved. Now, it isn’t what God wanted, but a lot of people said, “Why didn’t they stand up?” and the answer is—they were never going to spare the flock. They had grown too weak, even though they were converted; but they could have confronted.
    Now…let’s fast-forward. Because men began to leave in different times and over different issues, were fired at different times…Different groups formed, nature abhors a vacuum. Wham! Opportunists stood up, and they would grab thousands of people, pull them to themselves and there’d be a whole bunch of groups instead of one.
    They were given a second chance—outside the Worldwide Church of God—to unify, and where there’s about 50,000 people in the splinters, they chose to stay under ministers…I’m talking about the ministers for a moment…under ministers who were divided, who would not give up power; who had their own doctrinal ideas, their own administrative style; believed God had chosen them and created their own narratives for why “we’re right and everybody else is wrong.” That’s what happened. And so, they wouldn’t give up power, and the brethren wanted to be together.

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    The Church of God has a history of narcissistic ministers and members filling its ranks.  On several closed and hidden Facebook pages where exCOG members share their stories, it is appalling to hear how some were treated by narcissistic parents.  What makes this even more troubling is that this is happening by parents who are part of a church that claims to have be practicing first-century truth and love.

    The thing about being a child of narcissistic parents is that it usually makes you the powerful one and that infuriates the narcissist.  Just look at how Dave Pack, James Malm, Bob Thiel, Ron Weinland and other over react when they are questioned.  Their narcissistic power erupts.

    The Strength of the Scapegoat in the Narcissist Family
    In the narcissist family, as a means of survival everyone rotates around the narcissist, who is usually Mom or Dad. Sometimes both parents are narcissistic. In my family, my father was the overt Narcissist Personality Disorder (NPD) type, and my mother enabled his abuse while also having her own covert narcissistic traits mixed with a higher order of being that sometimes allowed her to give affection, attention, and generosity. When it served my father’s needs, as is typical of NPDs, he bestowed approval, even idealized exaltation, to his “golden child,” my brother.
    If you are familiar with the narcissist family cast of characters, you know that there is nearly always a “scapegoat,” and in my family that was me—the narcissist’s go-to projection screen for his abusive behavior and his trash receptacle for blame and rage.
    Given that my father viciously mocked and terrorized me, my mother, and eventually my stepmother and stepsisters, I knew our family was unhealthy, but it took a long time for me to find the psychological profile that reflected our particular pathology. It took even longer for me to admit to what sadly clichéd extent we all fit the narcissist family mold.
    The Biblical Scapegoat
    The Old Testament‘s Leviticus 16 told of sacrificial “scapegoats” [see Ed Stetzer]. One goat was mortally sacrificed, while another was cast into the wilderness to carry away the “sins of man,” both to release humanity of its guilt, which is the biblical ceremony for Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement). William Tyndale is believed to have coined the term “escape goat” in his 1530 English translation of The Bible, from the Hebrew version.
    The Scapegoat’s Strengths
    The scapegoat feels the acute injustice of his/her role. It is painful, confusing, maddening, and it frequently carries with it emotional and physiological damage that lasts a lifetime. But family scapegoats also have both innate and learned power. They are not chosen at random. Rather, they are typically targeted because of their strengths.
    The narcissist well knows who in his sphere is most manipulable and who is most independent-minded, and he targets his greatest threat with projection and punishment. The scapegoat is the one most likely to care about and fight for justice within the inherently unfair narcissist family system, defending herself and others often in direct opposition to the narcissist.
    Scapegoat Traits1. Strong-willed
    2. Empathic
    3. Justice-seeking
    4. Internalizes blame
    5. Emotionally reactive
    6. Highly sensitive
    7. Protective of others
    8. Questions authority
    9. Care-taking
    10. “Different” in some way
    Redemption for the Narcissist Family ScapegoatChildren of narcissists are trained to toe the family line at all costs. Challenging the family system is considered a sacrilege, and it calls for a courageous movement away from home into the “wilderness” of the world.
    Although the strengths of the narcissist family scapegoat make her a target, they are also her salvation. Her ability to see and question along with her desire for justice enable her to escape the family tyranny while others cannot. And her capacity for empathy, so unlike that of the grandiose and compassionless narcissist, gives her the ability to form healthy and fulfilling relationships beyond her family of origin.
    The (e)scapegoat’s redemption is breaking free.
    Julie L. Hall is the author of the forthcoming memoir, Carry You, about life, and a few near deaths, in a narcissist family. Read excerpts

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    The Holy Board of RCG seeks to speak with Apostle Pack of his prophetic failures.

    Apostle Pack screens the Prodigal Ministry

    RCG Members can't wait for the whistle

    NEVER question Apostolic Authority...EVER

    In the end, RCG members have only one option left when nothing works out well...

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    After a long explanation as to why the August 21st total eclipse from the Carolinas to Oregon is not a sign of the end of the world and the foolishness of those who preach it should be evident, Dr Bob correctly concludes, save for his church only having the "sure word of prophecy"...

    "While the end is coming, the solar eclipse of 2017, like the ‘blood moons’ of 2014 and 2015, is NOT a sign that Jesus gave in Matthew 24 nor as shown in the Book of Revelation. Mark Biltz once again is pointing to his interpretations and attempting to say they mean some particular message from God. Although the USA does need national repentance, God is not sending a total eclipse as a means to do that. God has allowed many eclipses and they of themselves are NOT listed in the BIBLE as being of prophetic importance.

    A solar eclipse is not a sign of the beginning of the great tribulation (see the 6th chapter of Revelation). A solar eclipse occurs when the Moon passes between Earth and the Sun, thereby totally or partly obscuring the image of the Sun for a viewer on Earth. Casting a shadow does not end the world.

    (Posters Note: Neither does the blowing of wind, pounding of rain, fire, snow,heat or cold)

    Why report about this? Because there are many false and heretical leaders that lead people astray on prophecy (2 Peter 2:1-2). Scoffers will not believe, but properly understood biblical prophecy will come to pass (2 Peter 3:1-12).

    Sometimes false teachers mention the Bible to try to act like God sanctions their nonsense. And it is not just the secular fringe people, but also those who claim to be Christian or even claim to be in the Church of God.

    Yet, those of us in the Continuing Church of God “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed” (2 Peter 1:19, KJV).  (Poster's Note: Bob means "I have")


    Because we believe the Bible over signs that many point to.

    You should too."
    God trying to get Portland's attention but missed.

    ...Why can't he also conclude that volcanoes, weather and earthquakes are just volcanoes, weather and earthquakes without falling into the Bronze and Iron Age explanations of that which no one, at that time, understood and attributed to the gods, punishment and retribution?

    and too...

    "Is Bible Prophecy About Earthquakes Being Fulfilled?

    "Is Bible prophecy being fulfilled?

    Well there certainly have been great earthquakes in various (diverse, KJV) places.
    The reality is that in the past 67 years there have been substantially more "great" earthquakes than the prior 67 years.

    In the past year or so, there were substantially more major earthquakes than the prior year or so.

    An increase in seismic activity is consistent with biblical prophecy.

    Early Christians (and the more faithful of the modern ones) believed and taught that God gave humans 6000 years to live outside the Kingdom of God, followed by the Day of the Lord, and then the return of Jesus Christ, who would reign with His saints for a thousand years. According to various chronologies that I have viewed (see Does God Have a 6,000 Year Plan? What Year Does the 6,000 Years End?), the six thousand years is about up.

    (Poster's Note:  Gotta love those "more faithful modern ones".  According to to various chronologies Bob, that I have viewed, modern humans have been on the planet for about 200,000 years and  there were plenty of cultures up and running that never noticed Noah's Flood. )

    So, this suggests that the recent earthquakes probably are in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies and that we are within only a few years of the start of the Great Tribulation and that Jesus may return by the end of the next decade (When Can the Great Tribulation Begin).

    (Poster's Note:  Now there's a sure word of prophecy for you. Or probably one anyway.)

    ...The Bible teaches that God controls the weather (Psalm 147:17-18; 148:7-8"


    Sadly and of course to quote Bob, the reason some weather and astronomical events don't qualify as "God trying to get our attention" is that they don't fit with his own mistaken notions about when he thinks Jesus is going to return.

    Since, to Bob, this or that "can't happen" until this or that happens, he will continue in his delusional, superstitious, scientifically God-Haunted and fake ministry leading folk ultimately the proverbial path of "nothing to see here folks."

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    Issue 196 of The Journal is out. 

    Read it here.

    To subscribe to the print version, please follow this link: Also, we provide FREE print subscriptions to anyone who writes us to inform us he cannot afford a paid subscription. Here are The Journal’s postal and E-mail addresses: The JournalPO Box 1020Big Sandy, TX 75755USA

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    Bob Thiel is lashing out at the Living Church of God, yet again, for publicly telling potential recruits to his personality cult that he was not ordained by the Living Church of God and is not to be considered ordained with proper credentials.

    This has always been a bitter pill for Thiel and has been a serious blow to his pretentious priggishness.  Vanity has always been the thorn-in-the-side of so many deluded self-appointed Church of God leaders. The pompous vainglorious attitudes of so many COG splinter leaders has initially brought in significant numbers of people to their personality cults, but as time goes by and members see the false veneer stripped away revealing the haughty and arrogant personalities of the leaders, the members start to drift away. The men become more deluded and narcissistic with each passing day.  More and more absurd demands and revelations for their followers are dished out as God-sent teachings.

    All of these men, in order to establish themselves as God's one and the only man with the truth, will develop all kinds of myths and outright lies about their station in the church.  Almost all present day COG leaders have been ordained by "proper" succession through the ranks of the previous alliterations of the church.  All of them except one, Bob Thiel.

    Bob Thiel was never ordained in the Living Church of God, never was given the title of ordination, never received an ordination certificate with an official seal of the LCG (or any other COG), was never officially asked to be a minister, and was never officially blessed to be a minister.  Regardless of that, he still is lying that he was.

    07/10/17 a.m. Recently, I got an email from someone interested in the Continuing Church of God (CCOG) who was being discouraged from being part of CCOG by one or more ministers in LCG along with one in COGWA. Basically, these ministers inaccurately claimed that I was not ordained, hence wanted to warn this person should stay away from CCOG.
    LCG and COGWA ministers are entirely right in encouraging members to stay as far away from Bob Thiel as possible.

    Thiel goes on  to promote the myth that Gaylyn Bonjour specifically prayed over him with the deliberate intent of raising him to the office of Minister in the Body of Christ.  Gaylyn Bonjour has specifically DENIED he ever had any such intent, yet Thiel continues to lie this is how he was officially ordained.
    The fact that I was anointed by an LCG minister, Gaylyn Bonjour, who prayed that God would grant me a 'double-portion' of His Spirit was apparently not relevant to them. Nor is the fact that the anointing minister told afterwards me that he knew what he seemed have done and that what he did could not be taken away. Since this anointing was a private matter (like King David, see 1 Samuel 16:1-9; see also Laying on of Hands)....
    Thiel has always been embarrassed about this and it has been a public humiliation for him and has made him the object of some hilarious ridicule.  Thiel found a new way around this humiliating experience by having one of his African "converts" lay hands on him and "anoint" him with new and special gifts he had been previously lacking.  They anointed him believing Thiel was already ordained.  This so-called "anointing" was done by several church hopping men who have jumped ship from one Sabbatarian group to the next as money and positions provided them with more importance.  This is the common practice of a large part of the Sabbatarian related churches in Africa and has been well-documented by church and relief organizations.
    ...later I was ordained again in public (like David, see 2 Samuel 2:4; 5:3). On 02/09/17 by Evangelist Evans Ochieng (formerly of GCG) and Overseer Samuel Ofosu (formerly of CG7) both laid hands on my for my anointing. So, it is improper to claim that I have not been ordained.
    Thiel still has never been ordained to the rank of deacon, elder, pastor, evangelist, chief overseer, or any other position.  He has self-appointed himself to those positions using deception, half-truths, and outright lies.

    Thiel also claims he is the end time prophet of the Church of God.  Hundreds if not thousands of prophets have popped up in the Church of God that Herbert Armstrong founded over 80 years ago.

    Thiel is still trying to give the impression to his gullible African followers that his prophet status came in a dream where his god told him he was a prophet.  Imagine how many prophets the world would have after someone eating some bad Chinese food like Thiel did.   Some unclean shrimp juice disturbed Bob's delicate tummy so much that he was having nightmares and voila!...he dreams he is a prophet!
    One question all should ask is regarding me is, "How does God make known that one is a prophet?" 
    It is not the way many seem to think. It is not based upon the decision of some minister nor a group of men. 
    The BIBLE teaches:
    6 Hear now My words:
    If there is a prophet among you,
    I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
    I speak to him in a dream. (Numbers 12:6)
    Sadly, most people will not believe that--but that is what God said.
    The butt hurt of being publicly dismissed as a fool by Rod Meredith still messes with Thiel's mind.

    But anyway, none of that matters because Thiel had TWO dreams!  TWO nightmares and voila!  He is a prophet!  Then a deluded LCG member elsewhere in the world ate some bad Chinese food and voila!  Bob's a prophet!  Just like that, Thiel has his prophethood status nailed, all thanks to some bad shrimp juice.

    Bitter prophet Bob continues on with this serious jump-to-conclusions by claiming that two LCG ministers said he was such a prophetic man that he needed no anointing to be a prophet.  I can almost guarantee you that these two men never had any intention of declaring Bitter Bob a prophet when they said that to him. Just as Thiel has taken Gaylyn Bonjour's blessing and twisted it into something else, Thiel has taken these two men's comments and twisted it to mean something other than what they intended. However, Thiel was still disappointed and embarrassed that he had no legitimate ordination and Gaylyn Bonjour hits the scene!  The miracle of miracles!
    The Bible also teaches:
    28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12:28-30).
    Now, does that mean that no anointing is needed? 
    Well, a month or two before Gaylyn Bonjour anointed me, two LCG ministers told me that I did NOT need a special ordination or anointing to be a prophet. I stated that, in my case at least, I felt otherwise. Then I prayed something would happen to clarify this in December 2011, and something did. The unexpected prayer for a 'double-portion' of God's Spirit by LCG minister Gaylyn Bonjour. God answered that prayer.
    Thiel ends his spiel with using Herbert Armstrong's bitter rant that church members and others claimed he was a false prophet. Since it has been well documented that Herbert Armstrong uttered HUNDREDS of failed prophecies, he has been proven to be a false prophet.  Remember, it only takes ONE failed prophecy and scripture warns believers to stay away from the person/

    Bitter Thiel is on a slippery slope if he needs to use HWA as a tool of legitimization.  Two lying fools do not create a truthful prophet of God.

    Now also consider something that Herbert Armstrong wrote:
    PERSECUTORS HAVE CALLED me a "false prophet." Now how would you KNOW whether the accusation IS true- or false? ... Actually, it probably is not very important to you to know whether my persecutors are right or wrong, when they call me dirty names, hurl epithets, resort to innuendo, impute sinister motives, strive to discredit, attempt character assassination. What is important to YOU is whether what you read in The PLAIN TRUTH really is the truth - whether what you hear over The WORLD TOMORROW broadcast is true- not whether I, as an individual, am true or false.  

    I think our readers know by now that we always say: "DON'T believe what we say because you believe in us." We say "Listen with open mind, without prejudice, then CHECK UP in your own Bible-prove whether it is true, and BELIEVE what you find proved!" I don't seek to induce people to believe in ME-I seek to lead them to believe in JESUS CHRIST! (Armstrong HW. Personal from the Editor. Plain Truth, May 1966, pp. 2) 
    You may search the Bible from beginning to end. You'll find the true prophets, apostles, ministers of God put first emphasis on the right CAUSE, not the effect. They proclaim THE WAY that leads to peace, happiness, security, and finally, eternal life. In Bible language, this means that God's Word, and God's true prophets and ministers put first emphasis on God's LAW...God sends HIS prophets and ministers to proclaim the RIGHT WAY, to show people that they are going the WRONG WAY, to cause them to turn around and get back on the RIGHT WAY through Jesus Christ by God's free grace... 
    God's true servants are not OF this world nor of its ways. (Armstrong HW. Personal from the Editor. Plain Truth, May 1966, pp. 2, 44-45)

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  • 07/13/17--18:51: Here Ya Go Bob...
  • In the Name of the Father, the Son and in the Hole You Go...

    Tell ya what I'm gonna do.  This weekend and this weekend only , if you act , I'm gonna give you my gen-u-ine  Herbert W Armstrong signed and David L. Antion bone-e-fied Ordination Certificate.  My name can be cut out and you can paste in your own name in the font of your choice. I know it can be done sweet and easy and no one will ever question you again. 

     It comes with a pretty seal of approval and if you can tough it out 25 years, a Lion/Lamb Seiko with a dead battery can be yours as a bonus.  I was going to throw it in Lake Ontario but sent it back . You can have that too by simply calling the Wildworld Church of God at their administrative offices they went.  Sadly and of course, you get no retirement as God hates retirement . It's in the Bible somewhere. 
    Act NOW!  
    This offer can be retracted at any time  especially if Gerald Flurry wants to buy them for his Brotherly Love Museum 
    But Wait!!!!
    There's More!!!

     If you act NOW. I will throw in absolutely FREE a bone-e-fied Ordination Certificate from one Joseph W. Tkach should you ever stray from your probably sure words of prophecy and need a back up to certify your about face.  This double portioned value is yours free for the taking.  Apostate Former Deacon Joseph W. Tkach  (AKA Alphonso Capone Tkach) backdated it to May 18th, 1975, don't ask me why, but if he can make ordination poo poo up about himself, I don't see why you can't.  Don't worry of it!  I've even heard of some getting anointed for a cold and coming out at the "amen" a Prophet!!!.  It's a miracle!!! You get a bonus 20 years credit even if it's a typo and historical proof that HWA and JWT Co-Ruled in the Wildworld Church of God.  

    I wish you the very best with your gen-u-ine ordination and your probably, could be we'll see Church of the Sure Word of Prophecy , we can hope endeavors in both Africa and The Arctic Circle.

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    COGwriterAt the Christianity Today website, an author (Shawn Graves) asked and provided some answers to the question, Why are there still atheists?

    Poster's Note:  Still?  In this age of blossoming scientific inquiry and because "knowledge will be increased" , which to religionists is probably one of the most threatening disasters to their narrow minds they can imagine, there will be more an more people waking up, losing their literalist religion and coming to their senses.

    "Spiegel asserts that for many atheists, it’s not “cool, rational inquiry” that led to their atheism. Rather, in many cases it’s complex moral and psychological factors that produce atheism. For example, Spiegel points to research suggesting that some prominent atheists had broken, defective relationships with their fathers. Others live in perpetual disobedience and rebellion—resisting lifestyle changes required upon adopting theism. And still others confess that they just don’t want there to be a God. Spiegel contends that immorality has cognitive consequences—it impedes one’s ability to recognize that theism is true.
    No doubt he’s right. Surely some people accept atheism due in part to such powerful motivational  factors."

    Poster's Note: The idea that those who have come to other conclusions about the origins, inerrancy, and historical reality of the Bible do so so they can break God's laws, be immoral and do what they want is one of the oldest and most stupid and  mistaken notions about why many grow older and wiser about all things Biblical.  Bob Thiel shrinks in knowledge as far as I can tell.  Good science,  good investigation of history, good archaeology, good cosmology, good paleontology and good theology done well is THE REASON.  The Hebrew Concept of God becomes the ever shrinking one in light of our growing understanding of the realities of where everything in the Universe comes from and how it may have arrived without the need for magic. Science informs religion and corrects it's mistaken notions about how the world and life works and where it came from. Men don't really come from mud and women don't really come from spare ribs. Evolution is a fact and only those who either cannot read or have the kind of faith that not only is based on what they don't know, but also what they won't know cling to creationism and the ridiculous notion that real humans are contained in some meager "6000 year plan of God." Humans have roamed America for at least 12,000 years and Europe and the Middle East and Africa for over 200,000 years.

     A good long sit down with "Foundational Falsehoods of Christianity" by Aron Ra, who you'll dismiss because he has long hair and probably likes football, could be enlightening. However since your method of searching out a matters is 1. Assume your conclusion and 2. Assert your conviction (then repeat) you will never grow in either the grace or knowledge you claim to understand.

    Religion does not inform science and never has or will. Good science done well has NEVER had to apologize to the church and go backwards into the Biblical explanations of things.

    Dr. Bob asserts....

    Now, actually one of the reasons that there are evolutionary atheists is, believe it or not, in the 19th century various male “intellectual” were looking for excuses to not have to abide by biblical standards of sexual morality. And back then, some of them even admitted that is why they embraced the concept that life randomly evolved without a creator God.

    Posters Note:  Bullshit Bob. No one is looking for excuses, they are searching out a matter, which even the Bible says "it is the glory of a king" to do so, even if it was not encouraged among the rabble,  and this kind of apologetic is a pathetic attempt to skirt real issues. 

    The various 19th century "intellectuals" were looking for answers to the questions the growing fields of science were bringing to the table to be explained and understood in reality.  Many of the early critical thinkers were ministers and deeply religious with a love of science and a mind open to the fact the Bible may not need to be taken too literally in it's mythologies about creation, floods and the grand exploits of a rather insignificant cultic people writing up for themselves an amazing pedigree, while in captivity.

    "I would also add hypocrisy to the list. The fact that evangelicals, for one example, are more likely to be involved with fornication than the general public, despite biblical admonitions against it, turns people off."

    Poster's Note:  Your shallow and childish judgments and explanations from the Bible also turn people off. Majoring in the minors does as well and you are good at it.  I would also add delusional thinking to the list of reasons some men feel the need to mind everyone else's business and pretend to know more than they actually do. Claiming your double portion of the spirit and thus claiming to be a genuine prophet in the Biblical mode, being anointed for a cold, also turns people of faith off and would turn anyone into a scoffer.

    "There are also scholars, for example, like Bart Ehrman, who started out as Protestant but when they learned more about church history, realized that Protestantism simply did not fit with much of the Bible...."

    Poster's Note: Bart did not just come to feel Protestantism simply did not fit with the Bible. You are misrepresenting his journey and his conclusions.  You obviously have never read one book Bart Ehrman wrote in full. I'd start with "Misquoting Jesus" before you get too sure you have the sure word of anything. 

    "But I would like to add that it is illogical to be an atheist. While there may be many reasons that people may doubt the existence of a personal God, such as the one that the Bible teaches about, the reality is that any that conclude that there cannot be a creator/god are being foolish: 
    1 The fool has said in his heart,”There is no God.” (Psalms 14:1, NKJV)

    Poster's Note: Rather you should say Bob, "In my opinion it is illogical to be an atheist" To those who have done the hard work of inquiry for their lifetimes as opposed to sitting in their living room chairs pontificating over things they know next to nothing about,  it is completely logical to question the Sunday School version of life. No Bob, the fool has said in his heart, "there is only Bob Thiel's rendition of God and Bob knows the mind of this god better than they all."

     Ignore-ance is clinging to not only what you don't know, it's clinging to what you won't know.

     Bob continues...

    "One of the reasons that it is foolish to conclude that there is no God is because humans should realize that we are finite beings. No human has been to ever place in the universe, no human has lived forever, no human has been to every possible dimension that may exist in the universe. Since no human has done that, for any human to conclude that there cannot be a god or any type is illogical. Why? Because no human has enough possible proof that God cannot exist. Doing so with limited “evidence” is foolish."

    Poster's Note:  This is the completely invalid argument that you can't know anything unless you know everything.  That is, in order to have any knowledge at all, you have to have infinite knowledge of all and only God has that.  So before you can really know anything for sure, you  either you have to be God himself or you have to have that very special relationship with God that reveals to you real and complete knowledge above all other knowing.  This, of course, is exactly what religion claims to provide. It is also bogus and pure apologetic for pretending to know what don't know in fact. 

    "But, despite the fact that some claim to be atheists, God’s existence is logical."

    Poster's Note: To YOU you.....

    In Non-Compliant Love
    "Apostate Former Minister and Scoffer Falsely So Called" 

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    Dave Pack continues his downward spiral into madness.  The problem with what you read below is that his members will do exactly what he told them to do.  After all of this time, and with all the things on the Internet about this slug, they deserve everything that will happen to them when he goes belly up or is institutionalized.

    From Exit and Support:

    July 5, 2017 
    This are notes from Dave Pack's last few sermons (end of May 2017 to probably first week in June): 
    He states that the "fire" (ultimate testing of God's people) has already started. He talked about not hiring any more ministers and said that we do not need to build any more buildings because the end is just about here. Then he said that the coming "fire" before the Tribulation period (which is right around the corner) means to totally commit to the end-time Work by pulling their wallets out of their pockets to fund the Work. References Luke 12: 32 and 33: "Sell that you have and give alms."  
    Talks about how he knows there are millions of dollars that "God's people" are sitting on right now and they're trying to get themselves to release it but it's hard. Family, spouse, kids--they are catching 'heat' from family, but of course, this heat is nothing compared to what is coming on the world. But "God is literally going to cook it out of you with the coming fire." The early birds into the coming kingdom must do this. He said he truly fears for those who do not sell all that they have. He says they can't play games. God will not be able to let people "escape" the coming Tribulation unless they are willing to do everything. They will or won't obey that command. Says that is the fuel for the coming fire (or testing of God's people). Says you can't be saved unless you do this. 
    In the next sermon Pack talks about faith. He finally gets to the point of his sermon during the second hour. Sell all you have, release your funds to prove to God that you trust Him completely. Pray for those who have significant funds (implying they won't let go of their money). He reads verses referencing denying God, or denying Christ, by not doing good works. He talks about knowing that we are close [to the end], as his own trials are telling him that. Mentions the verse about selling all you have, references fundraising, saying he never talks about that. Says he truly fears for all those who don't sell all they have and sit on their money. He says he really feels afraid for those people as they won't be saved. Think of the guilt you will have not giving all your money to God. Don't hide money. Don't deny God in this way. --[name removed]

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    Poor Dave Pack.  It looks like some of this members are not being too respectful to him now that he is demanding all of their assets once again.  Could it possibly be true that some are finally waking up to what a fraud he is?

    July 4, 2017 
    I attended RCG services for several months before realizing that David Pack is a total fraud.  
    The last few sermons I was able to read online, before I was removed from the member portion of RCG's website, have him practically demanding that his congregants give all their money to "the Work" as the end is very near.  
    In the four months I attended I noticed how obsessed he was with "the splinters" all the time stating that any day now the people in the splinters would be flicking to him now that God had given him the knowledge of Daniel's unsealed book. (Which is the basis for the 75 plus sermon series.) 
    Then last month he did a complete 180º and stated that the splinters would not be coming to him and that he would not be expanding his campus--but he still needs all of our money to continue "the Work." He went as far as to say that he truly fears for those who are sitting on assets but just can't quite "pull the trigger and reach into their wallet." He reminded the women (in which I assume there are more of in his "church") that they are entitled to half of the marital assets. Stated several times in a loud voice that he "needs funding now!" 
    He also made the statement, in a sort of roundabout way, that some were sort of questioning him or being disrespectful to his authority which is something that didn't used to happen back in the older days where respect was of more importance than it is now. I took that as sort of a warning he was indirectly giving to his congregants--sort of letting them know in advance that he did not like it. He stated that one of his ministers just quit.  
    I was truly surprised to see the beautiful Mercedes Don Conard (minister who headed the Iowa/Nebraska/Missouri area) drove. I knew that he lived in Topeka and so just a general Internet search of name, property, etc., I discovered the very expensive house he resides in, on a lake with long dock and boat, that happens to be in his wife's name only. (She does not attend nor believe in what her husband believes in.) Now there's a very convenient reason Don Conard has for not being able to give all he has to "the Work."  
    I feel like such a fool, but I wasn't one for very long. I appreciate your work on your website. --Escaped RCG

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    From an East Texas source regarding the current turmoil swirling around Church of God Big Sandy and Christian Educational Ministries/Born to Win.

    Please note: Any information James Malm posts about this is from spurious sources.

    The Vultures Are Circling


    A recent comment to Banned By HWA expressed concern about the possible merge of Christian Educational Ministries (CEM) with Church of God Big Sandy (COGBS).  The fate of CEM should indeed be of concern to CEM supporters at this time.  Ronald Dart passed away over a year ago.  Allie Dart has long been the number one, bulwark defender of Ron’s image and Ron’s works since his illness and death.  But she is not in good health at this time.

    For this reason, it is important to keep an eye on organizations and individuals that could potentially be key players in this rapidly-evolving situation.

    Let’s be blunt.  CEM is a cash cow.  Granted, CEM’s social media presence is quite deficient – especially when compared to some of the other ACOGs.  In spite of this, CEM has a healthy income through contributions and from sales.  All of this is done mostly thru radio and snail mail.  CEM has little overhead when it comes to paid employees.  And, contrary to popular opinion, only 6% of CEM’s inventory requires a purchase.  CEM gives away 94% of its products. 

    CEM’s biggest strength is the inventory of preaching and teaching created by Ron Dart.  His DVD’s, CDs, booklets, books, and articles are considered by many to be the best messages in the ACOG movement.  So it would be quite the coup for any ACOG that ends up merging with or partnering with CEM. 

    And let’s not play word games.  There is no such thing as a merge or a partnership.  Whether discussing business, education, politics, or religion, there is no such thing as a merge or a partnership.  There can be claims that two organizations are merging or partnering.  But a merge or a partnership always ends up being an acquisition where one dominates the other.

    So no one should be fooled into believing that CEM will merge or partner with another group.  Any such group will, in reality, be acquiring the works of Ron Dart. 

    Here are some of the possible corporate candidates for the acquisition of CEM.

    Church of God Big Sandy.  When David III was first hired by CEM, it was hard to imagine that his dad wasn’t salivating at the prospects of some kind of alliance that would keep both father and son on the ecclesiastical teat for many years.  After all, COGBS is experiencing severe financial difficulties due to the recent loss of its major donor who had been financing the group since its inception.   And COGBS’s membership is now only a fraction of what it was when they separated from United Church of God. 

    That was then.  This is now.  The possibility of a CEM/COGBS marriage probably died with the firing of David Havir III by CEM.  COGBS pastor Dave Havir is notorious for being highly protective of his cubs.  Anyone who dares criticize either of his adult boys has committed the unpardonable sin and can never be forgiven. 

    For years, a local business in Big Sandy had an arrangement where it would occasionally rent the COGBS building during the week for things like employee meetings and Thanksgiving dinners.  After several years of this arrangement, David III was hired by that company.  Things didn’t work out.  He left the company.  Soon after, Pastor Dave then kicked that company out of his building.  They have not been allowed to rent it since.   

    You can be assured that Pastor Dave (who is known for his many, many sermons about how he is so “besmirched” with his “good name being trampled thru the mud”) is now enraged by the “unfair treatment” his son has received at the hands of CEM.  So you probably won’t see any more cooperative efforts between CEM and COGBS.

    Still, it can’t be completely ruled out as a possibility.  After all these years, both United and Worldwide are still trying to figure out how Havir beat them so badly in the battle for members and money when he broke with each of them long ago.   So maybe Papa Doc still has his mojo. 

    United Church of God.  This is an interesting possibility.  And the only reason it should be considered as a possibility within ACOG circles is because UCG elder John Garnant is on the CEM board.  When John accepted a position on the CEM board, some were startled -- considering UCG does not allow its ministers to get involved with other church groups. 

    An example of this would be when Aaron Dean was disciplined for preaching at a non-UCG feast site.  His punishment was that he was removed from the UCG speaking schedule for six months.  

    One possible explanation of John’s ability to be involved with CEM is that that the bosses in Cincinnati haven’t picked up on his wayward activities yet.  Or it could be that UCG (considering CEM’s healthy cash position) is interested in maintaining any longshot chance they might have.  CEM’s good income and low overhead make it mighty attractive to any group that has trouble making ends meet.  UCG is just such an organization.

    Church of God International.  This might be the most viable and realistic possibility.  After all, Ron left CGI to create CEM during the late Garner Ted’s scandal regarding the masseuse.  CGI and CEM currently co-sponsor a Feast site in Land Between the Lakes, Kentucky, where 325 people attended in 2016.  However, there are some corporate culture issues that would have to be dealt with for these two groups to join forces.

    When Ron Dart first set up CEM, he made it very clear that his new ministry was not to be a church.  And he made it clear that he wanted CEM’s corporate culture to be different than those of the ACOGs.

    Dart knew that there was contention over the very term “Armstrongism” within the church of God movement where some think highly of Herbert Armstrong’s ministry while others are totally antagonistic toward it.  Dart wanted to find a middle ground.  And, in his attempts to create a balanced approach, he pointed out there were certain aspects of Herbert Armstrong’s (HWA) ministry that he wanted to avoid in the newly-created CEM.  Here is what Dart was quoted as saying in the January 31, 2003 issue of “The Journal.”  The title of the article was “Beware the Demons of Differentiation.”

    I don’t know how much of a role old habits played in HWA’s evangelistic efforts, but I do know he looked for differentiation, and he did so adversarially, as an ad man naturally would.  What he wanted were wedge issues: issues that could be used to drive a wedge between a person and his old church so the person could be attracted to the WCG.  And he wanted exclusive use of the product.  He didn’t want you coming to church with him this week and going somewhere else next week.  The wedge issues are familiar: born again, heaven... Sabbath and Sunday, pagan holidays, immortal soul, etc.  But, in typical ad man style, Mr. Armstrong advanced these with hyperbole and often took them too far in the attempt to differentiate.  Other products (read denominations or churches) were demonized to complete the sale.  The long and the short of the by-products of this approach was a church that was long on hostility and short on tolerance.”

    Dart went on to say:

    “Change is coming slowly, but it is sharply hindered by the need for organizational identity.  One wonders how this dynamic played into the Tkach revolution in the WCG.  Like the old ad man, Joseph Tkach and associates couldn’t see any middle ground.  It was either Armstrongism or mainstreamism.  They knew the former was wrong, so the other must be right.”  

    Dart also said:

    “It is the tolerance we at Christian Educational Ministries have learned over many years…that makes the CEM Feast of Tabernacles and its Internet forum possible.  It doesn’t require any compromise with right and wrong, merely a humility that comes from being wrong too many times and a willingness to grant others the right to make their own mistakes and learn their own lessons.”

    So here we have Dart making it crystal clear that Armstrongism was definitely not going to a part of his new ministry.  Yet, in CGI there are a number of ministers in that organization who are vehemently opposed to criticisms of Herbert Armstrong.  This is not just characteristic of some CGI ministers in the US, but also characteristic of some in Canada and Jamaica.  Instead of rejecting Armstrongism as Dart does, they embrace what some of them call “reformed Armstrongism.”  So we have two different aspects of two different cultures that could prove to be irreconcilable.

    Another problem is in the area of church government.  When the idea of a joint CGI/CEM feast site was first floated, some CEM supporters were upset at the very thought.  One CEM supporter produced an email where he pointed out that most churches which support CEM are congregational where the brethren select their own elders and deacons.  CGI’s churches have pastors who appointed by and answer to the corporate office -- not to the local brethren.  As far as the writer of the email was concerned, “This church governance issue is a deal-breaker because CGI is in no way democratic.  And I am not alone on this.”

    We also have a major difference that revolves around how the opening night services are conducted at CGI feast sites vs. what has traditionally been done at the CEM feast sites when Dart was still alive.

    Over the years, CEM’s opening night church service would include a message about the birth of Christ.  This goes back to the old teaching in the Worldwide Church of God that Jesus was probably born in the Autumn – perhaps even on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles.   In CEM’s opening night services, there would be songs such as Handel’s “Joy to the World the Lord Has Come” which some in CGI label “a Christmas carol.”

    During the planning stages for the 2016 Land Between the Lakes feast site, the CEM supporters wanted the opening night services to include these birth of Christ messages and songs that CEM had been doing for years.  In the end, this had to be rejected because there was no doubt that most CGI members would be offended. 

    Further, there is the problem of competing definitions regarding the question, “Who is and who is not a Christian?”  For years, CEM has stated that many Sunday-keepers could very well be Christians who will be in the First Resurrection.  This goes against what many CGI ministers believe.  For example, a recent CGI “Armor of God” program hosted by Bill Watson and Wayne Hendrix entitled “Can a Christian Be Unconverted?” stated (at the 5:18 mark), “There’s what?  One and a half to two billion Christians on planet Earth.  Most of them – the overwhelming majority of that number – are nominal…Christians.”

    Ron Dart would adamantly oppose that statement Accepting the possibility of the conversion of non-ACOG Christians was fundamental to Dart.   Conversely, denying the possibility of the conversion of non-AOG Christians seems to be fundamental to CGI’s Armor of God presenters.

    Finally, we come to perhaps the most important reason why there should be no merger between CGI and CEM:  This idea goes against the wishes of CEM’s founders, Ron and Allie Dart.   From the beginning, they have always wanted CEM to be a stand-alone ministry that will not be in any way absorbed or led by another organization.   Allie is still adamant about it.

    At the 2016 Land Between the Lakes feast site, it was mentioned to the congregation that, a few years prior, Ron had been approached about a the possibility of a joint CGI/CEM feast.  The speaker recounted that Ron replied, “It’s time.”   This story is no doubt accurate.  But Dart’s statement (“It’s time.”) should only be applied in the context of feast cooperation.  It should not be extended to include any sort of merger or combining or affiliation or unification or alliance or whatever spin/label is put on such possible future action. 

    When Dart set up CEM, he clearly articulated that he wanted CEM and its culture to be distinct from the ACOGs.  He knew it was vital to CEM’s survival that it be kept corporately separate from the other ACOGs. 

    Now we get into the question, “Can CEM continue as an independent, stand-alone ministry without being taken over by another ACOG?  The chances of this approach succeeding will probably depend on which individual ends up at the helm of CEM.  In the past, there have been numerous candidates who were considered to take the reins of CEM.  Dave III was not the first attempt.  In fact, he was selected only after discussions and interviews had failed with several other men.  Here are a few:

    Richard Crow.  Richard would probably not be a good fit because he currently works as a high-priced lawyer.  CEM could never match his current pay.  Taking over CEM would require him to abandon his lifestyle back at his nice subdivision in Houston.  It would not be pleasant for his family to relocate to rural East Texas which is not known as an urbane social mecca for the arts.  Further, Richard is not considered to be one of the better speakers in the ACOG movement.  And perhaps most importantly, Richard’s father, George, is on the board of directors of CGI.  This might be viewed as a conflict of interest by those who wish to keep CEM truly independent.

    Mardy Cobb.  On one hand, part of the CEM office staff has been actively promoting Mardy to the CEM board because he is a good speaker and writer.  On the other hand, Allie does not want him in that position because she isn’t convinced that Mardy would be enthusiastic about promoting Ron’s works.  She is fearful that any new head of CEM might make modifications (even minor ones) to Ron’s teachings similar to (but not as far-reaching as) what was done by Joe Tkach when he ascended to the leadership of WCG.   Also, Mardy has his own ministry which he would be loath to abandon.

    Wesley White.  Wesley and Allie have had lengthy discussions on at least three occasions about his coming on board CEM, but each time one of them had a change of heart and pulled back.  One of the sticking points is Wesley’s being non-political while Allie has stated that, since Ron was a Republican, she wants this new person to be a Republican also.  Wesley and Allie still maintain a personal friendship, but he refuses to get involved in CEM at this time.  He has refused recent requests to preach at their Sabbath services.  Wesley publicly wears his independence from all church organizations to the point where it sounds to some like a badge of vanity.  And like Mardy, Wesley has his own ministry, Dynamic Christian Ministries, which features a weekly internet Facebook/Youtube show.  He shows no eagerness to give it up in order to take on what he calls “the drama of CEM.

    Brent Kern.  Brent has a long history with CEM.  He was one of the few featured speakers at the mega CEM feast sites of years past.  During those glory years, CEM’s feast preaching was usually limited to Ron, Larry Watkins, John Reedy, and Brent.  Brent is considered to be a dynamic speaker and is a good vocalist who enjoys entertaining the congregation.  But he seems to have moved too far into Methodism to be an acceptable candidate.  His wife is of the Methodist faith and, over the past several years, Brent has spent more time worshipping in Methodist churches than he has with any of the ACOGs.  It would be an understatement to say he is not known as a doctrinal purist when it comes to traditional ACOG beliefs.

    Larry Watkins.  Larry is considered to have a pretty good chance to take over CEM after Allie is out of the picture.  After all, Larry was with Ron since CEM’s inception and departed only after Ron found out that, during the early days of Ron’s incapacitation when it was thought Ron only had days to live, Larry had been negotiating to “cooperate with” other ACOGs.  Larry was then terminated from CEM, so there is some bad blood in this relationship.  Larry is not considered a good speaker, but he has the support of some CEM board members.  Allie recently asked the CEM board to promise in writing that they would not bring Larry on board after she is gone.  The board adamantly refused to put this pledge in writing although Allie was given somewhat of a verbal commitment.  Needless to say, Allie has no faith in any verbal promise from a board she has long ago lost confidence in.   The bottom line is that, if you are a gambler, put your money on Larry if the hiring for this position can be put off until Allie is gone.

    Unless…  Yes, there is an “unless.”  Larry is getting up there in years and friends notice he is getting feebler these days.  In that case, in it conceivable that CEM could be headed up by Larry’s close friend, John Reedy.  John is a successful Tyler businessman who, like Larry, was heavily involved in CEM from the beginning.  It is rumored that John is considering retirement from that business.  So we may see John take over CEM using Larry part time.   John’s assuming the helm of CEM would create a closer relationship between CEM and CGI because of the fact that John is on the board of directors of CGI.  If CEM were managed by  Watkins and/or Reedy, it would indeed be a defacto acquisition of CEM by CGI because Watkins and Reedy would both take their direction from CGI.  There is no way that either of these men would operate independently of CGI.

    Finally, it is good to be reminded that, just because an idea may look good on paper, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is a truly viable plan.  The ACOG groups, while doctrinally similar, have evolved into some very different corporate cultures.  CEM’s leadership and any potential partner’s leadership would be wise to fully examine and comprehend these differences so they don’t make a serious mistake in this matter.

    It is unfortunate that issues like this are decided behind closed doors by our “betters” who feel no need to consult with the lay people.  It is sad because we are the ones who tithe and pay the bills for these organizations.  We pay the salaries of these leaders.

    Too many times, the brethren are told of these decisions only after it is fate accompli.  At that point, the only decision we have is whether to stay or go.  In other words, voting with our feet.   And this is why their numbers continue to dwindle.

    All of this bears watching.  It will not be dull.  

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