Are you the publisher? Claim or contact us about this channel


Embed this content in your HTML

Search

Report adult content:

click to rate:

Account: (login)

More Channels


Showcase


Channel Catalog


Channel Description:

Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. Every crazy, weird and wacky quote is straight from the pens of Armstrongite leaders or members who think they possess some insight into God and the Bible. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!

older | 1 | .... | 126 | 127 | (Page 128) | 129 | 130 | .... | 205 | newer

    0 0



    Oh Dave!  You are such a lumberjack!

    “Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars” (Zech. 11:1). Trees are a wonderful thing or, they can be a terrible thing. Again, I’ve been mentioning this…Cutting a lot of trees…I’ll be back tomorrow. I have cut about 500 trees myself, personally, over the last three Sundays. Most of them are small…
    I read an interesting article about trees, and it tells you something interesting about the Garden of Eden environment that God wants to bring to the whole world, and I think why the living Christ…Before we get into a story of “bad” trees, let’s talk about “good” trees for a moment, because the world will be filled with beautiful trees. I was just sitting the other day writing down the number of kinds of major trees on the campus…About four major indigenous oaks. There are a couple of kinds of ash; there are three kinds of maples; there is black locusts; black cherry, wild cherries; there are king nut hickories and shagbark hickories; a couple kinds of poplars, a tulip poplar and then standard American poplars, and American elms and so forth…and they all look different. I’ve gotten to where I can pretty much spot them in the winter. We’ve got some flowering trees and apple; hawthorn and dogwoods, and some ornamentals.
    But trees are all unique and different and serve different purposes. Here is an article. I just wonder, as I think of this magnificent campus filled with thousands of trees…about this article title, “Being around trees makes you less stressed”…and Christ picked this property.
    Has there ever been a man in human history who is as macho as superfantabulous Dave?


    0 0




    Wade Cox shows the world once again just how disturbed his little cultish mind is.  He has posted a comment on his Facebook page stating how important it is to prosecute murderers.  If murderers are not prosecuted they will end up being Sabbath breakers and will start celebrating Christmas and Easter. Who knew!!!!!!!!!!



    Cox is a prime example of what happens to one's mind when one claims to be a Christian yet denies the one whom they claim to be following.  To Cox, Jesus is a created creature just like koala's and panda's.

    It is mind boggling that there are a few hundred followers of this buffoon.




    0 0




    James Malm has been one of my favorite Church of God liars and false prophets.  Even Almost Arrested Elisha Elijah Amos Joshua Second Witness Bob Thiel pales in comparison.  In Malm's world "zeal" is the most important thing a COG member can have in his/her life.  Zeal for the law.   Not zeal for Jesus though, that is little too effeminate and wishy-washy.

    Besides prostituting himself to the law, he also makes many phantasmagorical false prophecies.  His editing of scriptures to fit his shallow law based belief system he is theologically bankrupt.  Wild end time prophecies about Clinton, Trump, 2017, 2024 and other wrong dates makes him and his Wiccan sidekick look like like fools.

    Even other COG's realize Malm is theologically bankrupt.
    The Cowardly Lion, the Straw Man and the Tin Man
    James Malm is the cowardly lion, hiding behind his keyboard, spreading and even entrenching himself in slanders and lies. Instead of repenting of his evil ways, he digs in his heels whenever caught in a lie or at very least excuses himself with the wave of a hand. He engages in straw man arguments continuously, but then he goes far beyond even that.
    By creating fictitious viewpoints of the various COG groups, he stands up his straw man and then knocks it down at least a couple times per week. A straw man, of course, is a lie. It is not the truth, and Malm trades in lies and gossip.
    However, he also takes it one step further. He will then engage in a tin man argument as well.
    In Malm’s world, not having a heart = “no zeal”. Even worse than the tin man argument, though, he first sets up the straw man, knocks it down, and then proceeds to use the tin man argument that because of the (straw man) false belief, the COG organizations have no zeal. It is such an obvious ploy that only the truly deceived can fall for it all. Dunce caps for the lot of them! 
    The false prophet Malm writes:
    A Trump presidency also does not bode well for the Internet. Recent advances in net neutrality may be derailed (“Will net neutrality survive Trump’s first 100 days?“). Privacy concerns is also not a top priority for Trump, and it is likely that government surveillance will increase. With his talk of “law and order”, we could well become just a little closer to a police state.
    Everyone wants to talk now about healing and unity, and even Bernie Sanders is attempting to quell dissent (“Bernie Sanders is ‘prepared to work with’ Donald Trump“). In spite of all the politicians playing nice post-election, it is only a matter of time before Republicans and Democrats start fighting again. There already are protesters in the streets who don’t want to accept the rule of law, and it is unlikely that Trump can really stem the tides of riots and police tension any more than President Obama could.
    I have increasingly felt this year that within 15 years, we will probably be in a state of civil war. In fact, I believe it will be much shorter than that, but something could still happen to forestall that. A Trump presidency is not that something, however.
    Our problems will only increase because our society and our politicians are utterly delusional. They have rejected the truth — all truth, not just biblical truth. Good is evil, evil is good, up is down, down is up. Gender is called “fluid”, but the human body is fairly solid material and is only vague in the case of undesired mutations. In every culture, marriage comes with religious groundings, but our society has tried to pry religion even out of marriage. When you pry too hard, things break, BTW, and the structure that comes tumbling down will be the nation itself.
    This process has been long in the making, and Trump, who himself is delusional in at least one or two areas, is not going to make that any better, either. In fact, his backing of so-called LGBT “rights” will likely only quicken the demise of the US, which has stuck its finger in God’s nostril and dictated it has a morality superior to even that of the Bible. Just go to any atheist website, and you can clearly see that they characterize the God of the Bible in very unflattering terms, most often by taking Scripture out of context and twisting it to mean something it does not say. 
    When will all of these lairs ever get off their butts and stop begging for money and help the widows, feed the hungry, asset the orphans and act like Christians that they claim to be?


    0 0




    Dave is so theologically brilliant the the Bible is now equivalent to children's story books.

    strange thing is happening, brethren. And I’m going to show you some more absolutel fascinating things later. It’s almost as though, now, I have reached a point where so many things have opened up—that I’ve battled for half a century—that the Bible, almost is like reading McGuffey’s Readers—“See Spot run.” I mean…I open things up now and it just talks in a clear way. I’m going to stun you later…Maybe not any more than making Haggai 2:7 and Revelation 11:18 compatible…or maybe, not necessarily any more than explaining verses about the resurrection of the dead and how they come and when they come…maybe not any more than that, but because of the eminence of the things I’m going to describe later, I know that will stun you in a powerful way. You can be sort of the judge of what stuns you more than anything else in all of this.
    Dave then makes the claim that he takes all of his new understanding to his inner circle of elite ministers and asks them what they think.  Is he really stupid enough to think that any of them would ever disagree with him?  They don't.  They are all "yes men" who will validate anything Dave comes up with, even though deep down they know it is a load of manure.

    I sometimes sit with all the ministers, and I will show them a whole bunch of things I have learned, because I kind of want to see what they think, and we come to agreement. I do that always. I never just come up here. I could, but I choose not to. I don’t think it would be wise to just come up here without having talked to a lot of men that I greatly respect, who are deeply converted, have a lot of God’s Spirit. We sit for hours and go through these things. And so, I’ll often say, at the end of sessions…I did it a couple times this week…with some of what we’re covering here, as a matter of fact…What grabs you most? What do you find the most fascinating? And you get different answers. They don’t all say the same thing—they all believe all parts of it—but they may react to or find a certain part is more visceral with them or punches them or exhilarates them…you can be “punched” with things that are exciting.


    0 0



    Dave Pack claims:

    Mr. Armstrong literally will have the honor of being the first human being, at the end of the age, to be resurrected from the dead. Now, there have been other people resurrected in different ages, but I’m talking about resurrected from the dead to go on within Christ’s government to a position of enormous authority. I just find that easy to understand.

    Isn't it wonderful to know Dave has the answer to EVERYTHING!

    0 0

                                               Why Unification  NOW!  (2013)

                                                                                                


    "Now comes a series of reasons Haggai’s prophecy will be fulfilled this year. They are summarized, with only a very little detail added. More could be said of each, but the descriptions given will suffice to those willing to think just a little about them. Realize there are over 30 more reasons—many of them very powerful—that I have left off the list because some will be covered later or because they would only be recognized as proofs by our Headquarters ministry (involving various miracles, some big). Readers would be largely unable to appreciate them as proofs:  (There was a reason for that)

    1) Understanding the meaning of the prophecy, starting with Haggai 1:2, automatically carries the requirement of taking a position on it. This cannot be avoided after one learns it. Think about this. The position of the remnant is that “the time is not come” to rebuild God’s House. Are they right or wrong? God indicts their thinking, meaning they are wrong! If the prophecy is not now, the net effect would be that God agrees with the remnant’s view. Worse, so should those currently in God’s one Church because they now know the meaning of the prophecy. Think this through. One does or does not agree with the remnant. God does not—and we do not. The time is now! Let’s go further.

    2) Directly related, why (or how) would God command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (Hag. 1:8)—but not mean NOW? How could He mean some undetermined future year? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now? Try to imagine God saying, “Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church for 20 years! You don’t have to DO anything now.”

    3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two or three years out?

    4) Next, why would God wait longer? What would He wait for? The remnant is absolutely ripe for deliverance.

    5) Internally, and this is no small thing, God’s Church is truly ready to expand the Work in a BIG WAY. The prophecy features this as the MAIN PURPOSE of the remnant returning! Without the prophecy’s fulfillment, this expansion would be delayed one year—or more! Why would God notify His Church of the prophecy’s existence at the very same time our staff is ready, our websites are ready, our literature is ready and even God’s college is ready for more students if the prophecy were not imminent? Why would God notify His Church if HE were not ready?

    6) Related to this, the buildings on our campus can very soon handle significantly more staff than we have now. This is already true without the other two buildings scheduled for completion in the late fall. However, this extra size works perfectly if the prophecy occurs this year.

    7) Also related, but separate, our infrastructure is ready to receive and serve a much larger flock this fall! This includes field ministry being ready, but also other things.

    8) Maturing interest from many in the world due to one year of explosive television expansion requires many more laborers in the ministry by this autumn.

    9) The Restored Church of God is experiencing an AWESOME period of growth and development at this time—in the runup period just prior to the prophecy’s fulfillment. This is putting it mildly! To us, this is powerful indication that we are on the right track for this year—that God is not only pleased with His Church, but that He is helping it get ready.

    10) If the prophecy did not happen this year, the remnant would remain another year (or more) undergoing ever worsening false ways. Worse off, they would have a commensurate shorter time to spiritually recover before the Tribulation. Think worse condition, less time to recover.

    11) If reunification occurred next year (or any year after), those with God’s Spirit would have one more year cut off from God’s Church. This carries the potential for more to quench the Holy Spirit (I Thes. 5:19) and lose salvation.

    12) The readers of the Haggai prophecy announcements (this is #21) who believed them would be the most disillusioned and the biggest candidates to QUIT everything if God did not return His people to one House this year! This would work directly against what God is doing—directly opposite His overall purpose.

    13) Further desolation (Hag. 1:11; 2:16-17) from God of the splinter “houses” would practically wipe out the few remaining senior leaders in them. This includes pastors and elders, all of whom are NEEDED TO CARRY OUT THE BIG WORK!

    14) The onset of all future years would never come with clarity—with any certainty! Would God leave thousands who are now aware of this prophecy in such a condition? Hardly.

    15) Next, for those who will see the value of how to pursue spiritual matters, there is this: After fervently seeking God about it, not one reason the prophecy is off this year ever emerged in the minds of even one of our 16 Headquarters ministers! I (we) have NEVER prayed about, studied over, meditated on, fasted about and counseled with other ministers regarding a subject more than this one—in fact no other subject is even close!

    16) Similarly, as questions emerged throughout our pursuit of truth with the many details of the prophecy, so many of these details kept coming clear as direct answers to prayer. And these were often immediate.

    17) Recall Haggai 1:13: “Then spoke Haggai the Lord’s messenger in the Lord’s message unto the people…” Haggai is the messenger to God’s people, with what is an all-important message from God. Would not God make clear in such a unique message He describes as “the Lord’s message unto His people” the correct date for action? What kind of message would it be if people did not know WHEN TO CARRY IT OUT?

    18) Since the apostasy, God had not wanted the remnant back in His Church, but now He does. He would first reveal the remnant to His leader, then tell him how they would return, and finally that He meant NOW. This was the order in which these things became apparent.

    19) Imagine God not revealing the year the remnant is coming—but only the day and month. Vast amounts of time would have been wasted by His leaders studying and preparing for something that was not imminent. Would God put His Church in such a position?

    20) Of interest, God revealed to me during ELUL four years ago my role as the modern Joshua.

    21) Also of interest, I and The Restored Church of God learned about the New Testament remnant last ELUL (August). Let’s ask: Would timing of when we were shown the prophecy not be tied to its unique timing of fulfillment during the very next available ELUL?

    22) We might ask: does the DEVIL know the prophecy is on? For those who understand how the devil works—that he counterfeits EVERYTHING God does—a variety of counterfeit theories have recently appeared about how God is going to reunite His people. Should not the devil be expected to do this at the time it would cause the most confusion? You will soon see that most of these theories are coming from men standing on the wrong side of this prophecy.

    23) With God’s people split up, it is now almost impossible to do a powerful Work. (This might be the one area where the splinter leaders would agree.) God’s Church is largely stymied in working with both brethren and the world because of the confusion and deception from top leaders about where God’s Church is, who has the truth, who is carrying on after Mr. Armstrong, who is doing the true Work, etc. (Reread #22.) There is no other way to proceed than for God to remove leaders who have lulled with deceit many thousands who were blind (Rev. 3:17) to begin with.

    24) World conditions cry out for a big Work NOW!!!—not one or more years from now.
    I repeat: There are many more reasons for a 2013 fulfillment, with a few of a personal nature—and others involving God moving miraculously to reveal crucial things at certain times within an extraordinarily complex prophecy that involves hundreds of verses. I have not included all of these reasons because others would likely not accept them as legitimate. They are, however, on MY much longer list (now 56 total). And these reasons stand on bedrock in the eyes of ALL our Headquarters ministers.

    Again, some of these other reasons—VERY POWERFUL POINTS—can only be brought out when I go into other scriptures in the final two announcements (these are verses outside Haggai, not yet covered). I will carefully denote these reasons when we come to them. There are at least seven or eight.

    Some summary review. Since the prophecy has been revealed, brethren have new knowledge. They know God disagrees with the remnant’s decision that it is not yet time to come together and build His House. With knowledge comes responsibility (Jms. 4:17; Heb. 10:26). Since God revealed the prophecy NOW, He clearly does NOT agree with the remnant NOW. If it were not to be fulfilled this year, He would essentially be agreeing with the very people He just commanded to change and come to work in His Temple. This would make revealing the meaning of Haggai pointless—because it would still not yet be time. Would God do this? No!

    The timing of this reunification is wonderful news for you, but terrible news for the leaders of the large organizations. They must continue attacking and lampooning these announcements. ou may begin to see a new level of viciousness appear regarding the work of The Restored Church of God—or me.

    Many reading the announcements are intrigued. Some are fascinated. Most are dismissive.....

    WITH REASON DAVE...WITH REASON......



    0 0


    Wade Cox, crazier than hell.

    Those periods come to an end from the arrival of the Witnesses. The people in them will be brought to repentance and brought into the body of Christ from the periods of the Witnesses, and from the First Resurrection of the Dead, as either spiritual or physical beings. The choice will be theirs alone and the reward theirs alone due to their own errors and choices.

    The conversion of Judah is accomplished under the witnesses and from that time no person can enter the First Resurrection. It will be too late.

    Satan will be bound and placed in the bottomless pit for the Millennium from the return of the Messiah. 

    From the return of the Messiah the nations will be brought down to Megiddo and they will be brought into subjection to the Messiah.

    By 2025 the entire world will be in the process of final subjugation for placement in its inheritance and the places in which it needs to be in order to prepare for the millennial system.

    In 2026 the last Sabbath Year of this age occurs.

    In 2027 the jubilee is blown and the new system takes its place and begins to prepare its own harvests from Atonement.

    In 2028 the Millennium commences from the New Moon of Abib, which is the New Year. 

    From this date there will be no harvests and no rain in due season for those who do not keep the Laws of God and send their representatives to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles (Zech. 14:16-21).

    It is of great interest that the religious systems of this world do not have any idea of the time frames under which they work and take no action to identify and restore the Laws of God and the Sacred Calendar (see the paper God’s Calendar (No. 156)).

    Everyone in the world will be given the opportunity to repent and to take his/her place in the Kingdom of God. Not many people will achieve the First Resurrection in the Last Days.

    Most will fail because they simply will not repent of the traditions of men. Hadithic Islam will fail miserably unless it repents and is baptised. As the Koran says if you do not keep the Sabbath of the Lord you are an ape (see Sabbath in the Qur’an (No. 274)Christ in the Koran (No. 163)The Koran on the Bible, the Law and the Covenant (No. 83) and the Hebrew and Islamic Calendar Reconciled (No. 53)). 

    All the three main systems of Islam, Judaism and Christianity will become things of the past. They will be part of a bygone age and brought to remembrance no more, along with the people who represented them. Those people will all be in the Second Resurrection at the end of the millennial system.

    0 0





    When individuals research the history of the Worldwide Church of God, they generally turn to the Internet.  The Internet allows the efficient gathering of facts, truths and insights.  The Internet can also be a rich source of rumors, lies, and innuendo.  For most WCG issues, separating the facts from the fiction is fairly straight forward.  There is typically enough documented data for individuals to make informed decisions without buying into lies or unsubstantiated rumors.   

    When it comes to evaluating the allegations of Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong (HWA) committing incest, however, the situation is more challenging.  The act is repulsive, the implications are significant, the burden of proof is high, and yet the documentation is somewhat sparse and hotly contested.  His critics tend to dogmatically claim HWA committed incest and offer this as proof that HWA was not a man led by God.  Some ministers have acknowledged that HWA did commit incest but they tend to downplay the significance of it.  Other strident HWA supporters have dogmatically claimed that the allegations are false and these individuals typically attack the integrity and motives of the accusers. 

    Is it possible to sort through all of the contradictory claims on this topic?  This document was prepared to summarize my own efforts to do so.  It was compiled from information that is available on the internet.  I’ve also included additional material regarding my discussions with some of the ministers who had been at the Pasadena Headquarters just before and after the accusations were made public around 1980.       

    PART 1 – SUPPORT FOR THE ALLEGATIONS BEING FALSE

    A number of individuals have indicated that the charges against HWA are false, unfounded and evil spirited.  Common positions include:

    1.     LACK OF EVIDENCE - the evidence presented by his accusers would not stand up in court.  An example of such a position is discussed in further detail below.

    2.     INCONCEIVABLE - it is inconceivable for a man of integrity, a man of God, to have done such a thing.  This type of defense is also addressed below. 

     

    “Not guilty” due to lack of evidence.  Bob Thiel is an individual who finds HWA not guilty of incest due to there being insufficient evidence to prove the incest had taken place.  His full, in-depth explanation can be found at the following link:

    http://www.cogwriter.com/news/cog-news/herbert-w-armstrong-incest-not-guilty/

     

    Bob reported that he personally investigated the issue.  He claimed that not only could the accusations not be proven, but some aspects were actually disprovable.  He concluded that the accusershad merely perpetuated the charade with no direct information and that HWA would be found not guilty in any real court of law. 

    In essence, Bob believes that all accusations about HWA and his daughter stem from the charges first aired in David Robinson's 1980 book, Armstrong’s Tangled Web.

    A significant point Bob made included that Art Mokarow would not stand by previous comments about personally hearing HWA's alleged confession in the "Lochner tapes"

    Note that in Bob’s investigation, he did not discuss the allegations with several individuals who had reported learning about the incest directly from Armstrong family members. 

     “Not guilty” because it is inconceivable.  It makes no sense that God would have imparted spiritual knowledge to an individual who, at the same time, was violating his own daughter.   This is the position many take, including the individual behind the "HWA Library" site and Frank Nelte.  In response to questions I raised, they both argued along the lines of:  God only works through men of integrity.  God obviously worked through HWA.  Therefore, HWA is a man of integrity and these claims must be false.

    Although many strongly believe this to be the case, circular reasoning proves nothing.

    PART 2 – SUPPORT FOR THE ACCUASTIONS BEING TRUE (GENERAL)

    Lack of Denials

    It would have been reassuring to find clear denials of the incest at the time these claims had been put into print in books (e.g., Armstrong's Tangled Web) or when they appeared in newspapers (during HWA's divorce trial and when the church divided in 1995).  However, the allegations were never denied publically by HWA, by his family members, or by the WCG. 

    Is the lack of denials proof that the incest occurred?  No.

    "David Defense"

    Some HWA supporters have acknowledged (without getting into the specific 'proofs') that he had committed incest with his daughter but then have offered excuses such as the "David defense" to minimize the transgression and to imply that it had no impact on his role.  Such statements are telling but they neither prove nor excuse the alleged incest.

    Are non-specific acknowledgements of incest proofs that the incest had occurred?  No.

    PART 3 – SUPPORT FOR THE ACCUASTIONS BEING TRUE (SPECIFIC)

    1.     Nov. 19, 1979 Letter from David Robinson.  David Robinson, a former WCG evangelist, wrote a letter to HWA thatalluded to the incest and other sexual issues and requested that HWA resign for the good of the church.

    While some have attacked David Robinson's integrity, others have defended him.  This is not surprising.  This is often the case when individuals speak out about controversial topics and every individual could be praised or criticized depending on what attributes or actions a supporter or enemy would choose to focus on.  


    2.     HERBERT ARMSTRONG'S TANGLED WEBby David Robinson, 1980

    David Robinson wrote from firsthand knowledge of the WCG and with deep disappointment.  He came to agree with Solomon who advised against putting their trust in men. Chapter XX of the book covered
    HWA and the incest story.   An excerpt is provided below and the entire book is available in PDF form at the following link accessed from "The Painful Truth"  website:


    "Incest is a terrible and unnatural crime, an extreme perversity. That is why I was shocked beyond measure to hear that Herbert Armstrong was himself, guilty of this vile sin. I learned of this in the summer of 1979 from members of his own family. The story, sordid beyond imagination, was told in awful detail.

    One family source was Garner Ted Armstrong. Last summer, as HWA attacked his own son in such savage fury, his son was in the depths of despair. His emotional mix included anger and deep hurt. In such a state he told family secrets that otherwise would have been locked within him forever. He said he had learned in 1971 of his father's incredible conduct during the '30's and '40s. The story came directly to him in lurid detail, but he kept it sealed in his own consciousness for all those years. But, in the spring of 1978 while in his father's house for the last time, his father had threatened to "destroy him." Ted, in response, replied, "Dad, I will destroy you. I know about you and -----." (He was speaking of the younger of his two sisters.)"

    ...None who have objectively heard the incest story in its awful detail doubt it. This is a vital chapter left out of HWA's autobiography. This sin occurred over a long span of years, a decade after his ordination to the ministry, according to his own family members. No wonder he was not receptive to David Antion's "qualifications for the ministry" paper back in 1974."

    Such matters should not normally be mentioned, but this is by no means a normal case. The welfare of thousands is at stake, and thousands who look to HWA, idolizing him as if he were God himself, must come to understand how dangerous such a view is. Thousands around the world have been hurt by blindly following this man. Now people must be given enough information to make an intelligent decision on whether this is the man who is going to lead them to safety during the "crisis at the close," or whether he is just going to continue taking their money and calling them "dumb sheep"!

    "...The way a man talks in private is the way he is. His public utterances alone aren't enough to judge a man's character—his trustworthiness. It is especially necessary to know what kind of man you follow when he promises to lead you in the kingdom of God."

     Although this book may not have been the most well written account of the church, much of the material was consistent with other sources and confirmed through my personal discussions with ministers who had been at headquarters during this period. 

    Is the incest claim credible?  Since Mr. Robinson stated that he had learned about the incest directly from several family members (although he named only GTA), this leaves us with just a few choices:

    ·       Mr. Robinson was lying.

    ·       GTA (and others) had lied to Mr. Robinson

    ·       Mr. Robinson had told the truth

    No matter how disgruntled an individual had become about WCG in 1980, it is difficult to imagine that they would be willing to make such a claim if they knew it were to be false.  WCG was very well-funded and litigious and it would have put an individual at great financial risk to make such a claim in print.  Mr. Robinson went ahead and made the claim and also explained why he did so.

    Although Herbert Armstrong never sued David Robinson for publishing his book, two of his employees (Henry Cornwall and Sherwin McMichael) did sue Mr. Robinson.  The suit was settled with WCG having to pay Mr. Robinson $25,000.



    3.     December 1, 1980 Ambassador Report

    The incest story was also mentioned in Ambassador Report #14, December 1, 1980 ("HWA incest allegations not denied").

    Many AR readers who have read David Robinson's book Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web have written to us expressing absolute shock at some of the allegations it contains. Especially disturbing to many are the allegations contained in chapter 20 entitled "Incest."

    We sincerely wish that we could report uncovering evidence to negate Mr. Robinson's charges, but unfortunately that is not the case. Herbert Armstrong has not issued any statement discounting the charges, nor has Stan Rader. Dorothy Mattson, Herbert Armstrong's daughter, has not come forward to deny the allegations. And Garner Ted Armstrong has also refused to deny the charges. The Toronto Star, Sept. 20 (p. F4) wrote:


    "Contacted by phone in Tyler, Texas, where he heads his own new church, the Church of God International, Garner Ted Armstrong said he had 'no comment' regarding allegations of his father's incest ...."

    All Ambassador Reports are available at:


    4.     December 30, 1981 letter from Jack Kessler to the Board of WCG

    Jack Kessler was WCG's CPA who worked directly with HWA and Rader and his letter detailing a number of corporate irregularities contained the following references to the charge of incest:

    “The human condition is such that it would shock probably only just a few to learn of the moral depravity that is reported commonly among you. Although others, such as Dave Robinson* and Floyd Lochner, apparently thought it might work to their advantage to report Mr. Armstrong's admission (which he's made to several) that he had engaged repeatedly in incestuous intercourse with his daughter during the first 10 years of his ministry, as well as more recent, self-confessed sexual perversity..."


    The entire letter available at:

    This letter was credible in a number of areas.  Was it true regarding the incest allegation?  In addition to mentioning Mr. Robinson as a source, Mr. Kessler also brought up Mr. Floyd Lochner.  Floyd Lochner had allegedly taped HWA, hoping to get a denial regarding the incest allegation on record, but instead, HWA had confessed to the incest.

    This evidence would be incontrovertible.  But many ask, “Where is the tape?”  Who had heard it personally?  If someone claimed too, are they credible?

    Art Mokarow is one individual who has publically stated that he had personally heard this tape.

    5.     April 1984 Ambassador Report #27 "HWA confesses to incest".

    This issue provided additional material beyond what David Robinson had mentioned and named others that were aware that the incest had taken place.  This was because Dorothy had told friends about the incest and that others had confirmed with HWA after reading David Robinson’s book.

    Some excerpts:

    The Armstrong organization, through surrogates, attempted to use the courts to block distribution of the Robinson book, but failed miserably (Ambassador Report, Sept. 1980). It is most remarkable, however, that in attempting to stop distribution of the Robinson book, never once was it asserted that the incest allegation was untrue. Nor did Dorothy Mattson, HWA's younger daughter, ever come forth to deny the incest story (and she has repeatedly refused to respond to queries from the Report regarding the matter). In spite of all this, it seems there are still some who prefer to believe that the incest story was fabricated. Let us briefly review the facts.

    In 1971 Garner Ted Armstrong paid a visit to his younger sister Dorothy. He had long been suspicious of the kind of relationship his father and sister maintained during his youth. They chatted over a few drinks and then Ted told her bluntly of his suspicions. She did more than admit the allegations. With candor she related detail after shocking detail.

    For a number of years GTA kept the information to himself. But Dorothy did not. She divulged the same information to many others including David Antion (GTA's brother-in-law) and Lois Chapman (who had been married to the late Richard Armstrong, Ted's older brother).

    And…

    “The last meeting between GTA and his father in 1978 was not the only time HWA confessed to the incest allegation. In 1980 Henry Cornwall, then an aide to HWA, read the Robinson book soon after it appeared and asked HWA directly if the chapter on incest was accurate. HWA told him it was. He then instructed Cornwall that his wife Ramona was not to see the book or learn of the incest story. Unfortunately for Herbert, Ramona already had a copy of the book and was in the next room listening to the Cornwall-HWA discussion. Shortly thereafter, she too confronted HWA about the incest allegation. And once again, Herbert admitted it was true, but begged and pleaded with Ramona not to let this fact get in the way of their marriage. The cause of the problem, he said, had been Loma, his first wife.”

    6.     Lakeland Ledger May 12, 1984 newspaper article about HWA’s divorce with Ramona mentions an “understanding” the couple reached about Armstrong’s “prior incestuous conduct with his daughter for many years.”

    The reference within this article was quite significant to me.  This is not the type of comment a newspaper would make carelessly.  If the lawyer had spoken in error, it would be logical to expect that HWA's attorneys would have corrected the record. 

    7.     April 19, 1993 Letter by Mark Thorton

    Dear friends in the Worldwide Church of God,

    In late November of 1992 I read an incredible account of Herbert Armstrong carrying on an incestuous relationship with his youngest daughter Dorothy from 1933 to 1943, the year she married Verne Mattson. Later, in January I read another account of it in a book by former WCG minister David Robinson. It was Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web published in 1980. At the time I discounted the story as fiction. But over the succeeding months leading up to last April 12 I'd learned of many other serious moral sins in the man's life. They were widely reported on by many former ministers who knew him.

    But I still doubted the incest allegations -- that is until Mr. Gary Antion confirmed that they were entirely true when I talked with him after his sermon on the last day of Unleavened Bread, April 12. I'd asked him if he'd read David Robinson's book. He said he had. I told him that I'd read in another publication that Dorothy Mattson told his brother David Antion (a former WCG evangelist) all about the incest. (They were and are in-laws.) He nodded. I asked him if David ever said anything to him about it. "Yes," he said.

    "What did he say?" I responded.

    "He told me the story was true," he calmly said. "But before you get all upset and say how could he have done such a horrible thing, we should remember that we don't know what went on in his mind. We don't know if he repented or not. Maybe he repented in 1980 after David Robinson's book came out."

    He went on to say that God gave king David time to repent and that if Mr. Armstrong repented, that he'll be in God's kingdom and if not, he won't be there. He also said he'd known about the whole thing in 1978. I asked if his brother David knew about this before he left the church in 1974 or after. He said David knew before. Antion was casual and relaxed with his words and never hesitated with any of the information.

    He said that this should show us not to look to a man for our salvation which he said the church had done in the past. Finally, he asked me why I'm here; meaning the church. I said because I believe what the church believes, for the most part. He smiled, nodded and encouraged me not to let the matter bother me.

    But as you can see, it does bother me a great deal. HWA claimed that God used him to raise up the Philadelphia era of His true Church beginning in 1933. I don't think so. In addition to raping his young daughter for many years, the "apostle" was widely known to have habitual sexual sins throughout his life including fornication, adultery, and masturbation. He frequently lied, misused church money, and had a serious drinking problem. And despite his appearing public image, Joe Tkach is not much of an improvement.

    So there you have it. I've sung my swan song, thus ending nine years as a loyal WCG member.

    By Mark Thornton (Wisconson)
    April 19, 1993 (snail-mailed to 35-40 others, including ESN)


    This letter is available at the following site:

    8.     1997 letter from GTA in response to an inquiry about the incest


    The Church of God International
    Post Office Box 2530,
    Tyler, Texas, 75710
    Garner Ted Armstrong, Founder

    July 28,1997

    Dear Mr. (Name Withheld by Request),

    I'm sorry, but I really have no comment about the very lengthy letter from Jack Kessler. The entire situation is completely moot at this time, of course. My father died at age 93 1/2 back in 1986, eleven years ago, and I certainly have no desire to resurrect a lot of ancient ghouls from their graves and engage in a lot of criticism involving the actions of individuals in that organization decades ago.

    Nothing my father did, negative or positive, matters to my personal salvation, or to yours.

    For the last twenty years, I have continued to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God as a witness and a warning to the world, and I have never engaged in the kind of spiritual "grave robbing" that exhumes ancient sins of fifty or sixty years ago, and attempts to defile and defame the memory of individuals who themselves are long since dead.

    Sorry if this proves disappointing to you, but I simply have no further comment.

    Sincerely,

    Garner Ted Armstrong


    This letter is available at:  http://hwarmstrong.com/garner-ted-armstrong-incest.htm


    This letter comes across more as "I do not want to talk about it" than as an "It did not happen" response.  This letter proved nothing but it also did not contradict earlier statements made by GTA to others which acknowledged HWA had committed incest.

    9.     Dec. 4, 1997 article in the Los Angeles New Times.





     

    The article continues…

    The thing that drove Carrozo and others to leave, however, was the leader's double standard regarding his own edicts. In accord with Armstrong teaching, church members could visit doctors to obtain a diagnosis, but not (except in a few special cases) receive treatment. "As a pastor in the field, I had seen people die [for lack of medical attention]," Carrozo recalls. "And yet, as I came to find out, whenever he [HWA] became ill, he would slip away to a doctor for treatment." But such matters paled compared to another secret.

     According to former church officials, and the founder's own grandson, Richard David Armstrong II, Herbert's younger daughter, Dorothy, began to tell family and friends during the '70s that, years earlier, her father had molested her. John Tuit, an ex-church member living in North Carolina, recalls Garner Ted Armstrong telling him of his sister's startling revelation and that Herbert had not denied it when his son confronted him.

     The allegation surfaced publicly in a book written by David Robinson, a former Worldwide minister in Oklahoma. The church tried unsuccessfully to suppress it. Robinson recounted a bizarre late-night conversation with the then-widowed Herbert during a church festival in the Poconos. Armstrong, who had been drinking, was alleged to have confessed to Robinson that he had molested his daughter between 1933 and 1943. Then, to the astonishment of the younger minister, Armstrong was said to have produced a small black book in which he had carefully documented the many times he had masturbated, a practice he had frequently railed against from the pulpit. "It was a shattering experience for my dad," says Mark Robinson, a Dallas-area businessman, whose father died in 1995. "Until then, he had no reason to doubt Mr. Armstrong's spirituality."

     The issue arose again in 1984, during divorce proceedings between Armstrong and his second wife, Ramona Martin, a former switchboard operator 46 years his junior. The breakup, after seven years of marriage, was nasty. Armstrong, playing hardball, had accused her of stealing church property and was pressing criminal charges while refusing to bend to Ramona's demands for a large settlement, including a large amount of cash and the couple's sprawling ranch-style home in Tucson, Arizona. Until, that is, shortly before a court hearing at which her lawyers had threatened to introduce a purported "understanding" between Herbert and his wife regarding the alleged incest. The divorce was quickly settled to Ramona's satisfaction, and the criminal charges were dropped.

     Although damaging, the fallout from such disclosures didn't debilitate Worldwide for as long as Herbert was alive. The amicable and grandfatherly Armstrong continued to enjoy the adoration of rank-and-file members. Among those who heard about his shortcomings, many chose not to believe. "You blocked those kinds of things from your mind," recalls Joyce Renehan, who grew up in the church. (She and her husband, Bruce, left in the early '90s). "You might see a newspaper headline, but you were told not to read that stuff or Satan would get you and you'd be out of the church, and then where would you be?"

    Looking back, it is amazing how ill-informed we church members were and/or how willing we were to avoid unpleasant facts stated by “outsiders”.

    10.  1999 Letter from Bruce Renehan

    Bruce Renehan had interviewed some members of the Church of God 7th Day who had reported that they were aware of the incest.

    "I'm not exactly sure what constitutes proof to everyone. Before I began to author my book, my wife and I visited the Church of God, Seventh Day, both in Bakersfield and in Fresno. That is the church that Herbert Armstrong started attending in 1927. I first heard of the incest from some of their members, two of whom--Israel Hager and John Keiss--had known Armstrong in the 20s and 30s. Keiss, who was Armstrong's closest friend in the COG7 had actually discussed the incest with Dorothy Armstrong who confessed to him. Not wanting to believe hearsay from just one group, I placed a call to a friend of mine (Bob Mizell) in Pasadena. Bob was a very close friend to Joe Tkach Senior and, if anyone would know if the stories were true or not, he certainly would. Bob told me openly that both he and Joe Tkach had known about Armstrong's incest with his daughter and then he quickly brought up the David was a man after God's heart" ploy."

    The full letter is available at:

    In the letter, Bruce Renehan comes across as sincere, specific, and credible.   

    11.  Statement by Keith Hunt

    "Oh indeed, the WCG was going to SUE Ambassador Report a NUMBER of times over the next years, especially over HWA having an affair with one of his daughters way back when, that came to light [and for those who still say it was all slander and lies; I personally heard GTA say he confronted his dad on the matter and HWA admitted it was so, saying, I was not always close to God"].  What was the reply from Ambassador Report to the WCG stating they were going to sue them, it was "Come on do so, will be happy to see you in court."  The WCG NEVER did sue Ambassador Report!!"

    Keith’s comments about the incest allegation may be found at:

    A direct confirmation from GTA is significant.


    12.  WCG ministerial confirmations (various dates):

    ·      Many have reported that David Antion (GTA’s brother-in-law) has acknowledged that the incest occurred (apparently to all that are willing to ask).  

    ·      Art Mokarow had confirmed that HWA committed incest while in a public setting.   

    ·      Other COG ministers have acknowledged the rumor to be true when asked by members, including Gary Antion and at least one of the current UCG Council members (2016).


    13.  2014 Interview of HWA’s niece Deborah

    In a radio interview, Deborah related that the family had kept quiet about Dorothy to protect her.  Deborah’s mother had told her it was true.  She was also was told by her grandson.  Interestingly, Deborah noted that the only thing HWA had given her was a hand signed copy of his “Missing Dimension in Sex” book.


    Start at minute 50:00. 


    This admission by family members is significant and consistent.  It is difficult to imagine that Deborah would have been deceived about this or benefit from lying about it.


    14.  2014 Interview of HWA’s grandson Larry Gott

    In a radio interview, Larry Gott said that the incest was an accepted as fact within the family and that it had started when Dorothy was 14 or 15.    When asked, what kind of character was HWA, he said, “He was tyrannical… He was a person who craved and used authority over other people.  That was sort of the essence of him.    Nobody was really close to him – ever – including his wife.  He was an authoritarian and I would tell people that he was not completely honest with everybody about himself.”


    Start at minute 1:01:20.


    15.  Statement by Verne Mattson (Dorothy's husband)

    A December 2015 letter to Exit Support Network related how one man's father had contacted Mr. Mattson to discuss the incest allegation and how that Verne had confirmed it. 

    This letter may have been factual but was unsigned. 

    16.  Supplemental material related to above references

    “Inconceivable” is how many feel about the allegation that HWA had committed incest during the beginning period of his ministry and this was also my own response upon first hearing about it from a WCG minister in 1995.  At the time, it seemed too convenient for the pro-Tkach people to bring this ugly rumor up just as individuals were deciding whether they should stay in WCG or leave.   If true, why had it not been a problem all along?   I gave the allegation no serious consideration for the next 15 years.

    While researching the history of the church during the UCG/COGWA split, the allegations came up again and again.  It was unpleasant and again tempting to ignore but after confirming most of the allegations about financial impropriety in Ambassador Report and other books, and  after reading mention of the incest in the Nov. 12, 1984 Lakeland Ledger newspaper article about HWA’s divorce, it made sense to consider the incest allegations more seriously. 

    There was substantial ‘proof’ available on the internet but it required one to believe that the referenced individuals had really known and said what was being alleged.  Could these individuals just have been repeating an unfounded rumor as Bob Thiel had concluded, or was the rumor actually true?  I wanted to speak to somebody in person to remove the shadow of doubt.  In the end, it was possible to discuss the allegations with several individuals mentioned above:

    1)    Al Corrozzo (July 2014 discussion at the UCG Doheny Beach activity).  Mr. Carrozzo confirmed that that he did author, and stood behind, what one could find credited to him on the Internet (e.g., “Al Carrozzo’s Resignation Letter to Ministry” and “The Profligate Son” post in Ambassador Report).  When asked about the incest allegation, he answered without pause, “Yes, that rumor is also true.”  He explained that he knew for certain because his good friend Art Mokarow had heard HWA confess on Floyd Lochner’s tape.

    2)    Art Mokarow (Dec. 2014 phone conversation).  After learning that, when asked in a public setting, Art Mokarow had confirmed the incest had occurred; I called Mr. Mokarow to determine if this report had been true and, if so, how had he known for certain.  Art said that he knew for certain that HWA was guilty of incest because he had heard his taped confession that had been recorded by his friend Floyd Lochner (confirming what Al had told me earlier that year).

    3)    Keith Hunt (by phone in April 2015 phone conversation).  Mr. Hunt confirmed that he had personally heard about HWA’s incest directly from GTA.

    4)    Art Mokarow (May 14th, 2016 phone conversation).  I re-read Bob Thiel's "proof that the incest had not occurred" in 2016.  Thestatement about Art Mokarow backing away from his claim bothered me.  I again contacted Mr. Mokarow on May 14th, 2016.  Art did not back away from his statement at all.  Yes, he had heard the tape himself.  He also had heard Mr. Armstrong confess the incest directly to him to some of the other leading ministers.  This had occurred close to the time when David Robinson's allegations had surfaced and were being circulated.  Apparently HWA had wanted to address the issue and move past it.  Essentially, he had said, "Yes the incest had occurred, I had not always been close to God, but I've repented and now I need to know who is going to continue to support me at this time?"  Some ministers stayed, Art Mokarow moved on. 

    I believe this is likely why other ministers had felt comfortable in acknowledging the incest allegation to have been factual when asked by church members.

    5)    David Antion (Dec. 2016 discussion after services in his Altadena congregation).   Mr. Antion confirmed much of what had been stated in AR#27, what Mr. Kessler had mentioned, and what had been documented elsewhere on various websites.  It was true that Mr. Armstrong had committed incest; that the abuse had begun around 1933, that the abuse led to incest and had continued into the early 1940’s; that Dorothy had confessed to family members, friends and specifically to David Antion (in 1979/80 when the charges became public); and that GTA had told other ministers.

    All of the individuals above were found to be credible and their individual stories were consistent when evaluated as a whole.  These individuals were sincere and candid and spoke without bitterness.   Although most of the initial confirmations occurred close to the timing of the release of David Robinson’s book, these confirmations did not stem merely from David Robinson’s allegations as had been concluded by others.  It is logical that once the incest became public knowledge, many would have sought confirmation from member of HWA's family and that some of his family members would again discuss something that had been left unsaid for years.


    Summary

    Although a lot of information has been presented but it can be easily summarized:

    ·      Dorothy had spoken about the incest to family and some of her friends long ago

    ·      Dorothy had also confessed to John Keiss of the Church of God 7th Day

    ·      GTA had learned about the incest from Dorothy in 1971

    ·      Keith Hunt had heard about it directly from GTA in the early 1970’s

    ·      Mr. Robinson heard about it from GTA other family members in 1979

    ·      HWA confessed to Art Mokarow and other top ministers (and Dorothy had spoken with David Antion about the incest) in 1979/80 just before the release of Mr. Robinson’s book

    ·      Mr. Robinson published Herbert Armstrong’s Tangled Web in 1980

    ·      Floyd Lochner recorded HWA after he heard the allegation

    ·      Art Mokarow had heard HWA confess the incest on the Lochner tape

    ·      Al Corrozo confirmed that Art Mokarow had heard the tape

    ·      Jack Kessler had heard the rumors, and learned about the Lochner tape, in 1980 and then had asked HWA directly about the rumors and HWA admitted to the incest

    ·      Ramona's lawyers mentioned HWA’s incest in the divorce trial in 1981

    ·      GTA did not refute the allegation when asked in writing in 1997

    ·      HWA's niece Deborah had learned about the incest from her mother long ago and recently confirmed this during a 2014 radio interview  

    ·      HWA's grandson Larry Gott stated that the incest was an accepted fact within the family and did so during a 2014 radio interview


    Conclusion:  Was there a big conspiracy to denigrate HWA’s character or were the allegations factual?  Simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones.  After looking into this topic in greater detail, it became clear that the allegations were factual.  I found no reason to fault the credibility of Al Corrozo, Art Mokarow, Jack Kessler, Keith Hunt, Deborah, David Antion and Larry Gott on this subject.



    -Kevin





    0 0



    What is it with all of the crackpots of Armstrongism the have to set timelines for events of the end time to take place in.  Not a single one of these liars has ever told the truth and not a single one of their predictions has ever and will never come to pass.

    This is the silliness that Cox is predicting.  Remember this is the same guy that lies that half of the African continent are members of his cult...which we all know is not true since they are all members of Almost Arrested Bob Thiel's cult.

    From 1972 to 1975 the Church was given 1260 days to deal with its problems and prophecy, and it failed its task by giving false prophecy. 2012 to 2015 covers the same period at the end of the forty years for repentance of the Church.


    By this time the earth will be in serious damage and will require divine intervention.


    From 2019 we will have seen the Witnesses and the Messianic system from the Reading of the Law. From 2019 to 2027 the planet will be brought to its knees under the Messiah and subjugated.  
    From Atonement 2027 the world will be allocated its inheritance for the Millennium in all lands.


    This action then commences the Golden Jubilee, or Jubilee of Jubilees.


    After twenty-five years of war what might we expect the world to be like?


    The planet will be in the throes of the Millennial Warm Period (MilWP). That will be far worse than the last Medieval Warm Period (MWP).


    Sea levels should be well over the previous seven-feet levels of the MWP and the Roman Warm Period (RWP).


    The destruction of the planet will have taken over 25 years and the effects will continue on into that Jubilee. 

    The seas will be dead. The lands will be polluted and the population will be less than ten percent of its 2007 levels.

    The long process of repair and restoration will be commenced.

    Hadithic Islam, Rabbinical Judaism, and Trinitarian Christianity will be no more. Their ministers, imams and rabbis will be dead in the wars or converted to the true Faith. The only way out of the wars of the end is on our knees before God.

    In 2026 and 2027 the nations will send their representatives to Jerusalem for the most important conferences in the history of the world.

    Those that do not go there for the Reading of the Law will receive no rain in due season and suffer the plagues of Egypt. The nexus of the Law will be restored and the wages of sin will be obvious and immediate.

    On the Tenth day of the Seventh month in the 49th year of the 120th Jubilee, or Sunday 20th September 2026, commencing from dark the previous day, the Jubilee year will commence.

    Over that year the nations will be planned and organised into their inheritance. At Atonement in the Fiftieth year of the 120th Jubilee the Jubilee will be blown, and on the 23rd day of the Seventh month, immediately following the Last Great Day at the end of the Feast of Tabernacles, the restoration of lands will take place. All people will take up their inheritance within those lands. 

    They will commence ploughing and sowing for the first harvest of the millennial system at Passover in 2028. The major harvests of the Southern Hemisphere will be organised in accordance with their seasons and harvests. The Northern Hemisphere will be seriously damaged through the wars.

    The earth will have to be restored from 2028 to 2077. This period will mark the change of the entire attitude and approach of the earth’s populace.

    From 2028 the Temple system will be under the new priesthood of Melchisedek. The place of worship in Jerusalem will be commenced. This will be the millennial Temple and focal point of worship for the entire world.

    0 0



    The following appeared in the 1985 issue of the Ambassador Report. Thirty some years later and Dave Pack still has not changed.

    David Pack's Reign of Terror 
    On the night of Roxanne Elliott's death, one of the last people - probably the very last one - Lois Elliott phoned before the tragedy was WCG minister David Pack, pastor of the Buffalo (North), New York congregation.. Exactly what was said, we don't know. At least not yet. That information may well come out should Lois Elliott ever recover sufficiently to stand trial. What is remarkable, however, is how often Pack's name seems to appear in conjunction with tragedies in the WCG. For a number of years now, no WCG minister's name has appeared more often in letters written to the Report complaining of ministerial abuse. 
    Pack, a burly 6-foot, 5-inch Ambassador College graduate known locally for his authoritarian style, has so incensed some in his flock that a group have circulated an open letter detailing his abuses and have called for his removal. The letter describes Pack's ministerial leadership as a "Reign of Terror." On the cover page, addressed to WCG headquarters leaders, they wrote: "David's power-crazed quest to totally dominate the mind, body, and spirit of church members has not been done in a corner and has been done clearly in view of all to see at headquarters in Pasadena." 
    On the following 13 pages of their letter the allegations about Pack read like a horror story. The authors contend that Pack constantly intimidates members, uses threats and mind-control methods, is given to extreme emotional outbursts, is highly political, believes in winning at all cost, has disfellowshipped members for trivial faults, prescribes diets while "playing M.D.," insists on being addressed as Mr. Pack, enjoys wearing skimpy, skin-tight shorts to sporting events, has actually worn a wolf costume to church socials, enjoys putting down women, and told one married woman with children, "It would be better for you to shack up one night with a man than wear makeup." 
    The letter quotes Pack as having said, "Everyone who has challenged me has either died, been seriously injured or has been eliminated from the work." And, "God backs me even if I am wrong." 
    On page 7 the authors made this statement to Pack (emphasis ours):
    Doesn't it bother you that while you were in charge of the Rochester and Syracuse area there were three suicides? One can only wonder why they chose to kill themselves while you were their main advisor in the area. Perhaps you suggested to one or more of them that they would in no way make it into the Kingdom of God.... A statement such as, "You are no longer in the body of Christ," could have caused one to give up and kill himself.
    The above quote was written well before the Elliott family tragedy. Some who knew little Roxanne and her mother Lois Elliott wonder if it might have been a prophecy.

    Ambassador Report, June 1985 

    0 0




    0 0


    Meredith's deep seated aversion to sexuality had to have been formed prior to this incident when he was 12 years old.  His mind was already looking at sex as perverse.

    I had dance classes all through elementary school and at no time was it sexualized with panting boys lusting after girls.  Even dance classes at Ambassador did not lead to coeds fornicating in the Student Center mail room or the Frontier Room.


    "Even back in the 1940s, my mother and her friends - no doubt like millions of mothers all across the United States - had pushed me and dozens of my classmates to attend "dancing school" - where we were taught to dance face to face and chest to chest with young girls barely entering puberty. We were just little children who wanted to play baseball and "kick the can." God does not forbid dancing, of course, but He does command us to "flee sexual immorality" (1 Corinthians 6:18). Why did our mothers push us into the kind of semi-romantic, semi-sexual behavior involved in that kind of dancing when we were only twelve years old?"

    Uh...

    "We were so embarrassed at holding these girls in our arms that we simply took off running - not knowing what else to do with ourselves. It would be several years before we were truly ready for such "romantic" involvements even in an innocent way. Why were our mothers pressuring us into this kind of precocious behavior?"

    Uh...

    Rod's childhood was traumatised by dancing lessons at age twelve? Rod - now a septuagenarian - still has unresolved issues with his mother?

    As they say, "who'd have thunk it?"

    Memories from the old Alumni Discussion board

    0 0



    While Almost Arrested, Elisha, Elijah, Joshua, Amos, Doubly Blessed, Mayan Authority, Dreamweaver, Apostle, Prophet, Witness Bob Thiel was gallivanting around Serbia for his "feast" he was posting various topics of doom and gloom.  One day he was discussing how "scared" people are to walk around in the dark, of cyber-theft and public speaking. 
    California-based Chapman University questioned 1,500 people from across the United States to reach its conclusions. The survey found that the top five things that scare Americans the most are: walking alone at night, becoming the victim of identity theft, Internet safety, being the victim of a mass/random shooting, and public speaking.
    Fear is the main thing that keeps the Almost Arrested Doubly Blessed Apostle in business.   He tells his followers to be prudent and be alert because all kinds of hell will soon be happening.  If you are not awake and following him works for word then you will be unaware and you will suffer.  It then is apparently YOUR fault!
    Of course, natural and other disasters are coming and it is wise to take physical and spiritual steps to deal with them. Yet, many with fears and worries take few, if any, effect steps to deal with such matters. 
    As far as taking proper preparation goes, the Bible teaches the following:
    3 A prudent man forsees evil and hides himself, But the simple pass on and are punished. (Proverbs 22:3) 
    That does not mean that there will be no difficulties, but that proper steps should be taken. Jesus said:
    43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Matthew 24:43-44).

    So brethren, listen to the Almost Arrested Prophet and his wise words, follow him and you WILL be protected!
    People need to take proper spiritual steps now.
    Trials and tribulations are coming, but those who will heed the call to be Philadelphian Christians in this age can be protected from the coming hour of trial that will come upon the earth 
    Please consider your spiritual state, no matter where you may live. Just because you profess Jesus Christ and may keep the commandments does NOT mean that you will be protected. Only the Philadelphian Christians are promised protection and they have a different focus on truly doing the work (Matthew 24:14; 28:19-20) in these end times.

    0 0




    Things are getting crazier and crazier in Wadsworth as Dave Pack sinks further into mental delusions. With over 8 decades of absolute absurdities uttered by Gerald Waterhouse, Rod Meredith, Gerald Flurry, Bob Thiel, James Malm and Herbert Armstrong; Dave Pack is putting them all to shame.  Decades of false prophecies and outright lies have resulted in the delusional mind of Dave Pack.


    In a previous post I quoted Dave where he said Herbert Armstrong was going to be resurrected first, above almost all people in human history.  There is a reason for that.  Herb is coming back early so he can destroy Jerusalem who is the Great Whore of Revelation...according to Dave.  HWA's power will be so incredible that the will wipe Jerusalem and all of its inhabitants off the face of the earth so that the New Jerusalem can replace it...with Dave walking up the steps of the new temple to greet Jesus.  Of course this all happens after Dave and his members go to Jerusalem several years earlier and save it and its inhabitants from the wrath of Satan.   Sound crazy?  It only gets worse.



    First, let me tell you what it is and why Mr. Armstrong is tied to it. That “mountain” is the seventh resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire that Jesus Christ comes and throws down, ultimately destroys. Remember, we go to Jerusalem and we save Jerusalem from all nations of the world gathered against it.
    Now…I have to bring Daniel and Jeremiah and Ezekiel and more of Isaiah, coming in a sermon in four weeks, but that great mountain, which, in his life time, was probably more like the State of California going against him…It isn’t America…It isn’t any other country…But apparently, the man to whom God revealed the sixth resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire is going to be the one who personally deals with the seventh one. I know of no other way to explain it. He apparently is going to flatten it…and using others, no doubt, and angels. If there’s some other way to take it, I don’t know.
    And then he’s going to bring forth the Headstone, as the Chief Administrator. I believe Elijah’s task…As I’ve explained…he does a different thing before and after. He works with the nations of Israel. I understand that. But he will then introduce—to the entire world—Jesus Christ. That’s why three verses after saving Judah, and I believe Mr. Armstrong…You can understand why he would have to come back well in advance—get back into context. And you can understand why, at the end of the book of Haggai—you’ve been chosen for a time when I shake the heavens and the earth—at the time Christ comes back to His Temple—and “I’m going to throw down the kingdoms, the thrones and the armies—the strengths of the heathen—and I have chosen you” in that context. It’s impossible to misunderstand.
    And this becomes…By the way, now that you understand, there’s another great world government…not world government…we’ll call it European…but, the Vatican reaches all nations of the world with Catholics and others so that Mr. Armstrong…someone…is going to have to deal with and throw down and flatten. A great mountain that gets flattened.
    It’s interesting. When you look at the description of Mr. Armstrong, there in the end of Haggai, and the time that God is bringing him back to take down…among many other things, to take down the seventh resurrection, you think of Isaiah 2 and Micah 4. What’s the biggest thing on God’s mind when He sets up His government? He’s going to teach the nations to learn no more war. They’re notgoing to learn war any more. He’s got to stop it. 
    This week, the Russians announced a new missile called “The Son of Satan.” The whole world is trembling as they read about this weapon. One single missile can carry ten warheads. Each of those warheads over 1,300 times more powerful than what hit Hiroshima. And it can independently target…With a single missile, it said, we can wipe out France…Wednesday and Thursday, we can wipe out the entirety of Texas, one missile.
    Each warhead—ten warheads—750 kilotons. Hiroshima was hit with 15…Multiply that times ten. 7,500 kilotons in a single missile and they think they can get it up to 20,000 in one missile that flies so fast you can’t track it or stop it…And Hiroshima was 15. So divide 15 into 7,500 kilotons and you get 1,333. The article I read said they think they can, eventually, get 20,000 kilotons on each of the ten warheads—not the missile. So, they can get 200,000 kilotons on one missile that will split ten ways. They’ll erase all life on Earth…That’s just this week.…And they have super systems. So, in Poland and Romania on Thursday and Friday…And the Russians are upset a missile defense system goes up. Shock of shocks…
    But, there’s coming a world war of spectacular proportion. Whether nukes are ever allowed to be used, we’ll have to see. It will be church and state. Europe is going to have to respond. I will show you so much more. I know much more of the detail than I have time to tell you.
    Dave claims that HWA is going to lead the armies of Dave's god as he destroys the kingdoms of the earth.  HWA should like this since he always thought he was something special and powerful.
    Suffice to say, Christ knows “Before I get anywhere, we’re going to disarm” and Mr. Armstrong will be the one…As near as I can read and understand it, Mr. Armstrong will be the one that leads the way as God throws down all of the kingdoms, the thrones of the kingdoms and the strengths of the kingdoms of the heathen and disarms the world before the kingdom of God goes on to all that it will be in the first phases of the Kingdom.
    There’s much more to cover. In weeks to come, I will show you more about how Mr. Armstrong was, in fact, right on several things we thought might be wrong, merely because the timing was wrong. Zerubbabel…You know…That he was Zerubbabel is just one example of things we have seen that were right. But if you don’t know about a resurrection of the dead…I mean, brethren, how am I going to know he was Zerubbabel? But, finally, God breaks the code like with so many other things.
    We are in a very evil time—and I mean, a terrible time—and I don’t think we have long. That’s a different discussion. But, maybe you’ll enjoy thinking about that “three years” business. I will have a lot more to say in three weeks. 


    0 0




    Dave thinks that the recent deaths of COG ministers are a sure sign that his god is displeased with all of the COG's.   The god of Armstrongism has always been a magical god, ready to wreck vengeance upon all the ministers and COG's that certain leaders disagree with.
    I wanted to talk a little bit about something that relates to prophecy in a way that we would not normally talk about or think of. If a certain verse came to mind…that I’m going to show you in a moment…that, again, is another one of those that nobody ever understood, you certainly wouldn’t think of what I’m going to tell you. I’m just going to pass on something that is not pleasant, but, in a way, it can be, once I explain the whole picture.
    For a number of days now, maybe a couple weeks, in a large splinter…One of the large groups; the one I was in when it was called Global…one person after another, one minister after another, has died in an unbelievably tragic way. It’s just unprecedented. For a long time, in some ways before we even got to the things that I’m going to mention, I often thought of that group as a place of death and tragedy in some ways.
    Now, you might say that’s awfully strong…but there’s so much. There’s been murder. There’s been a vastness of the ministers that have died; been incapacitated. I’ve often called the group a widows’ convention…and there are a great many.
    About two weeks ago, maybe just a little over two weeks ago, a senior minister—a man who was ordained an evangelist over there in Australia—died suddenly. A massive stroke—dead—and left Australia rudderless. They put his son in charge because all the other ministers in Australia have grave health problems, and they can’t put any of them in charge. I know these men, because I’ve been to Australia for the Feast 20 years ago. I helped this man come into Global. I remember meeting him back in 1973. He was a faithful man in many regards. Love him dearly, and suddenly—gone.
    Another minister—this week—killed himself, and I knew him very well. The name is very personal to me. He was my first wife’s dear friend, beginning in 1960. She was in Milwaukee at age 14, and he was in the teenage group from Chicago, age 15. She would have graduated from college in’ 67; he in’ 66. Her childhood friend…I’m glad my wife is not here to learn how he took his own life.
    When I got to meet him, it was a joy, because I’d heard so much about him, and how, when my first wife’s grandmother, who was from Germany, came to services one day in Chicago for a Holy Day, this man’s father…very German family…also from Germany, walked up to the two Germans, on a Holy Day at, I believe it was McCormick Place in Chicago in the early’ 60s, and said, Oh, are you a member of the Church? She said no, and he goes, Ahh, du bist ein Heide. In other words, “You’re a heathen.” [laughter] I’ve never forgotten that story. And I kidded this man about his father, and it was a fun story. There are many wonderful memories I have of this man.
    I also helped him…even though he was older than I was by about four-, four-and-a-half years; five years ahead of me in college…I helped him come into the Global Church of God. Now, they’re both suddenly gone.
    Another pastor, in the Philippines, dropped dead this week. Just dropped dead, in the same group—heart attack, massive heart attack—longtime pastor.
    A member in this splinter was on the plane that went down—Egypt Air. A member in France left a grieving husband and son…and she’s never to be found. A terrorist act or not…I don’t know…but they were coming in…If you know the story, about two-and-a-half weeks ago. That’s a sad situation.
    So, there’s four, right there, and I wanted to just to cover this. I don’t “speak to” every one of those people. I’m not about to say that, if you take your life…That’s why I don’t want to get into his name…that you’re just going to come up in the Kingdom. Because very difficult things are going to happen, and to suggest to people—who, really, in the end, don’t endure to the end—that’s all right, you can die this way or that……But, that’s okay. You take your life, even though you didn’t endure to the end, you can be in the Kingdom. Because you suggest, to other people, that if the going gets tough—check out, and you’ll be in the Kingdom.
    There is a horriblehorrible message being portrayed about this…I hope the man, who was a friend of mine, was never converted; then maybe he could be someday. It’s a confusing time. One other thing that makes this man personal to me, and I guess I choose to share it with you, this particular minister took the Real Truth magazine for many years, right till his death. His name is still on our subscription list. He used my book on the trinity to help people in the splinters. The fact that the Worldwide Church of God introduced the trinity at a point was a big, big problem, in a particular way to this particular man, and he saw the book that I had written…and he’d studied the subject a lot…and he asked if he could have copies of the book.
    There was certainly a very interested and zealous side of this man, and none of you would have ever known he was on the Real Truth list, but now that he is gone, I will make you aware of that. But one of the concerns that we have, brethren—and I’ve seen this—where we sort of judge in more than one way. We have to be very careful we do not judge that people don’t make it into the Kingdom. You have to be very careful. And I’m not doing that. But when you declare that someone is in the Kingdom, you have also overruled God in a different way. You have judged for Him.
    We can understand sin. We can know people by their fruits, but when it comes to such matters, at the end of the day, where they do or don’t go, we stay out of it. I just bring that up, because there are so many different elements of the tragedy like this in an organization that’s full of tragedy, where sometimes that tragedy can personally touch us. And in this case, I’m very personally touched. I’m just glad my wife, again, is not here to know how her dear friend, from the early 1950s, ended.
    It’s a very confusing time with some of these people. The person who went down in that plane…Is it random? It’s kind of like the tower of Siloam fell on certain ones, you recall Christ’s account—except you repent you shall all likewise perish. These were not chief sinners, Christ said. There are tragic things that happen in a world. Why does God let a woman like that go down in that plane, leaving a grieving husband, and son? It also happens in other splinter groups where a lot of people are dying, not just ministers. I listed both there. 
     

    0 0

    Superfantabulous Dave,
    the most electrifying COG minister ever!

    Well Dave should have kept his mouth shut.  He has lost many member since stating this, including family members.

    I learned the truth that Ambassador College. It was fairly well established by the mid-1960’s God called me, as I often say 50 years ago now this month. Next week 50 years since I began to learn the truth. We heard things ahead of the brethren—but it’s been a difficult thing for our ministers. We’re learning so much, so fast, and I know everybody has riveted. I ought to just tell you, it’s been weeks, quite a number of weeks since even one person, anywhere in the world has left the Church. That tells me that the reports I’m getting that people are just riveted, and electrified are real (if you will), and there’s going to be much, much more again, including today (of course).


    0 0



    The latest issue of The Journal is out with a nice article about Gavin Rumney.

    There is also an article by John Robinson detailing Ken Westby's take on the 1974 "rebellion" of some on the East Coast.  I remember this time in the church.  Westby called it a "reform movement."
    Mr. Westby was also known as the leader of a movement from within the Worldwide Church of God in the 1970s sometimes referred to as the 1974 East Coast Rebellion. However, Mr. Westby said it wasn’t a rebellion. He called it a reform movement. 
    The article then goes on to talk about how they estimate that up to 10,000 members left the church during this time.  I know in the Dayton church we lost quite a few members from this.

    Living Church of God has another ad up for their "university."  They don't like their members associating with other COG's but they think it is appropriate to poach youth from other COG's. Something is wrong with that picture.


    Don Billingsley is back with  another one of his outlandish articles about his vision of end time prophecy in action.  As usually his goal is to get you to read The Mystery of the Ages along side your Bible, since it is the most important book ever written.

    Time is Running OutBased on what is made known by the news media, coupled with the end-time proph- ecies, it should be real- ized the handwriting is on the wall for this na- tion, and the end of it is now very close as it was for Belshazzar King of Babylon (Daniel 5:1-31)! Prophecy reveals super- power America will be conquered by the Revived Holy Roman Empire as was the impregnable Babylonian Empire by the Medio- Persian Empire. 
    MYSTERY OF THE AGES—Study your Bible together with the last book Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong wrote: the unedited MYSTERY OF THE AGES, ISBN 0-396-08773-6, and believe it. This could save your life from the worsen- ing troublesome times before us. R emember— Mr. Armstrong was the man Jesus Christ used to teach all of us His truth (II T imothy 3:13-14) 

    Marie Casale has an ad up telling COG members to leave their spouses if they have remarried after divorce.
    We are told to flee from fornication (1 Cor 6:18). This means that members who have unlawfully married or remarried should flee from those marriages. It also means that prospective church members who are in an adulterous second marriage while their first spouse still lives should flee from that marriage before they are baptized. Why? Because baptism does not change the definition of an adulterous marriage, nor does it forgive adultery that people are still going to continue living in.
    We are also told not to company with fornicators (1 Cor 5:9-11). This means that we should separate from and stop having a one-flesh relationship with our spouse if he or she is an adulterer. If we don’t, we will defile our temple of the Lord. This is why divorce is allowed for fornication and why the Lord’s example was to divorce Israel for her fornication. 

    You can read issue 190 of The Journal here.




    SaveSave

    0 0

    Thousands sit and wonder...
    (or should)

    "That doesn't sound right to me"

    Critical Thinking-Does It Matter?



    0 0




    Dave says that many ministers who will be joining his cult will be coming to him out of the ground.

    Many of the ministers that are coming to do the Work and enter the Kingdom are coming out of the ground, brethren. I am telling you, a lot of them wrote their record—they have built their character—they’ve served other people—they were faithful, in some cases, for decades before Mr. Armstrong died, and then they went wherever they went. But they are taken away because they’re settled, and they’ll come up at Christ’s Coming. 
    Others are dying, and they just died. They might have been tares. They might have fallen away completely, in the past. That’s why we don’t want to judge. Don’t decide that they were evil—and don’t decide that they were righteous. Just be aware of the process that, in many cases, God takes righteous men away from an evil I’m going to explain next week—that all of you know nothing of. The time has come to explain it. It just got particularly personal this week with a group of people I knew and helped come into the Global Church of God, and I wanted to explain that.

    0 0



    Almost Arrested, Elisha, Elijah, Amos, Joshua, Doubly Blessed Prophet/Apostle, Second Witless Witnsess and Future Martyr Bob Thiel has been working over time in trying to convince everyone that just because he had some nightmares after some bad Chinese food that he is now a true prophet of God.  He dreamed a dream and that proves it! We are expected to take his word for it.  Its all true!

    Thiel has now been usurped by E W King.  Prophet King had a dream recently there he was named a true prophet of God.  If Almost Arrested Thiel can claim that his dream was legitimate, why can't King?  If I were going to pick one of the two, I would pick King as a prophet.  He seems kinder and gentler than the attention seeking narcissist Thiel.  Both men are just a few steps short of entering the looney-bin.



    ~Prophet Eric W. King taken December 16th at Land of Mormon Temple - The Alter~


    “One of them lifted his right hand and spoke [unto Eric]. He said: “We have come from the celestial kingdom to call you forth as a prophet of God in this seventh church time. Behold, I am Elijah the prophet.” At this pronouncement I fell to the ground shaking madly. Then the other personage spoke: “Behold, I am, John the apostle. You have been working for the kingdom and now you must take on your full responsibility as prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ in this Seventh Church Time. You have rightly studied and discerned the seven church eras thus you have been lead by the Spirit of God and now called to take on the authority and responsibility of speaking with boldness and carrying this message with grace and humility to the church and to the entire world. You must now without any doubt fully trust the Lord.”


    ~The night of December 12th 2016 Vision~


    Because of this fact we also believe that America has been given a record of its own ancient Scripture which we recognize to be what is called “The Book of Mormon”. This record of ancient Scripture was found by the prophet Joseph Smith back on September 22, 1823. 
    Please understand that though we recognize this record of Scripture WE ARE NOT MORMONS in the regular sense of the title. After the death of Joseph Smith the church scattered as it always does after the death of a great leader. We do not believe in any other prophets after Joseph Smith accept for Sidney Rigdon and Eric King. We do recognize Brigham Young to be an authentic prophet but not in the same sense as Joseph Smith and it was he who led the group of people which latter on became known as “The Mormon Church” and what is today called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”. So again, though we recognize the Book of Mormon to be an actual scriptural record of ancient America we do not call ourselves Mormons in the regular sense. ~

older | 1 | .... | 126 | 127 | (Page 128) | 129 | 130 | .... | 205 | newer